1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Yes, atheists can have objective morality

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Arthur King, Aug 5, 2023.

Tags:
?

Can atheists have objective moral values?

  1. Yes

  2. No

Results are only viewable after voting.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Top Posters
Page 2 of 7
  1. Arthur King

    Arthur King Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2020
    Messages:
    491
    Likes Received:
    61
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Isn't that like saying "2+2 does not equal 4 without God"?

    Not quite sure how that is that case.
     
    #21 Arthur King, Aug 7, 2023
  2. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2014
    Messages:
    3,643
    Likes Received:
    642
    Faith:
    Baptist
    it’s nothing like that at all

    without God, murder is just survival of the fittest and fornication is ok because that’s what I want to do regardless of who it hurts or offends

    stealing without God is just me getting mine

    when you look at it, it looks just like our modern culture huh?
     
    #22 Marooncat79, Aug 7, 2023
  3. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 22, 2002
    Messages:
    11,532
    Likes Received:
    1,006
    Faith:
    Baptist
    As someone who taught math for well over 30 years, I can honestly say that 2 + 2 equaling 4 - all the time and every time - is part of the orderliness of nature designed by God.

    Where do nonbelievers get their moral nature?

    I'll try to keep this short.
    • from their parents, culture, and civilization
    • where did THEIR parents get it? Same place
    • And so on and so on for thousands of years
    Go all the way back to Cain. Cain was going to kill his brother. God knew it. God gave Cain FOUR chances to stop and turn from sin. They never discussed murder. It never came up.

    Cain KNEW that what he did was wrong. That's why he smarted off to God and said "Am I my brother's keeper?' That ALSO why he told God that everyone he met was going to want to kill him.

    God made humanity in HIS image. That means we KNOW what a moral nature is.

    Do we always choose it? Of course, not.

    It's been passed down from peoples to peoples and incorporated into law after law after law after law that it's part of who we are as a civilization of human beings.

    Just because a person will not acknowledge that God exists doesn't mean the moral code that God instituted has not reached him in some form or fashion.

    I don't understand your belief that morality can exist outside of God.

    It can exist in the behaviors of a nonbeliever, but not BECAUSE he is a nonbeliever.
     
    #23 Scarlett O., Aug 7, 2023
    • Winner Winner x 2
  4. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    20,493
    Likes Received:
    3,043
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No more irrelevant than you subjectively including Nazis and Jews in this discussion.

    Which category does this fall into, Divine Command or Natural Law? Objective or subjective?

    63 And it shall come to pass, that, as Jehovah rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you, so Jehovah will rejoice over you to cause you to perish, and to destroy you; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest in to possess it.
    64 And Jehovah will scatter thee among all peoples, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou nor thy fathers, even wood and stone.
    65 And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, and there shall be no rest for the sole of thy foot: but Jehovah will give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and pining of soul; Dt 28
     
    #24 kyredneck, Aug 7, 2023
  5. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2023
    Messages:
    1,079
    Likes Received:
    100
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Can something come from nothing?
     
    #25 taisto, Aug 7, 2023
  6. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2023
    Messages:
    1,079
    Likes Received:
    100
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Why is there objective reality?
     
    #26 taisto, Aug 7, 2023
  7. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,825
    Likes Received:
    1,363
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Because of whom God is, Acts of the Apostles 17:28, ". . . For in Him we live, and move, and have our being; . . ."
     
    #27 37818, Aug 7, 2023
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Arthur King

    Arthur King Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2020
    Messages:
    491
    Likes Received:
    61
    Faith:
    Baptist

    "I can honestly say that 2 + 2 equaling 4 - all the time and every time - is part of the orderliness of nature designed by God."

    So you are saying that in the atheist's universe, in which the universe is the product of material cause and effect, and life is the result of evolution, that sometimes 2 + 2 will not equal 4? Will 2 + 2 sometimes equal 10? or 10 billion?

    "I don't understand your belief that morality can exist outside of God."

    If human nature exists, and order in the universe exists, and happiness exists, and survival exists, then these are sufficient grounds for objective moral values.

    You can argue that such things would not exist in the first place without God, but that is a different argument. "Without God, the universe would not exist" is a different argument than "Without God, objective moral values would not exist."
     
    #28 Arthur King, Aug 7, 2023
  9. Arthur King

    Arthur King Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2020
    Messages:
    491
    Likes Received:
    61
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No, an atheist could argue that murder is a violation of the goods of human nature. Things like survival and happiness for all.

    The irony is that you are actually assuming a morally relativistic and morally subjective framework in the first place. "Morality is relative and subjective, this is why we need God to impose a standard on everybody."
     
    #29 Arthur King, Aug 7, 2023
  10. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 22, 2002
    Messages:
    11,532
    Likes Received:
    1,006
    Faith:
    Baptist
    People make cases for illogical, unbiblical, and incorrect statements all of the time. They are CONVINCED in their own minds that they are in the right. They aren't of course, but to prove the illogical - one has to insert a faulty mindset. It's a common thing.


    Ah, it's precisely the same thing. That what you don't see.
     
    #30 Scarlett O., Aug 7, 2023
    • Winner Winner x 2
  11. Arthur King

    Arthur King Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2020
    Messages:
    491
    Likes Received:
    61
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It's a yes or no question that you didn't answer:

    "Are saying that in the atheist's universe, in which the universe is the product of material cause and effect, and life is the result of evolution, that sometimes 2 + 2 will not equal 4? Will 2 + 2 sometimes equal 10? or 10 billion?"

    Whether or not people will wrongly think 2+2 equals 10 is irrelevant. We are talking about objective reality.
     
    #31 Arthur King, Aug 7, 2023
  12. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2023
    Messages:
    1,079
    Likes Received:
    100
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Now, the assertion of the OP, which is that without Him we live and move and have our being. For the OP, God is irrelevant to having objective truth. Objective truth would exist without God. Do you agree with the OP?
     
    #32 taisto, Aug 7, 2023
  13. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,825
    Likes Received:
    1,363
    Faith:
    Baptist
    LOL. Ojective truth originates with God, per John 14:6, John 1:2-3.
     
    #33 37818, Aug 7, 2023
    • Agree Agree x 1
  14. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 22, 2002
    Messages:
    11,532
    Likes Received:
    1,006
    Faith:
    Baptist
    2 + 2 = 4 for all people for all time. That's the only thing that 2 + 2 will ever equal.

    I didn't answer yes or no because there is no "atheist's universe" as you assert. There is only God's universe.

    No, 2 + 2 will only and always be 4.

    I don't understand why you think believe that pagans, atheists, and/or those who hate God and his commandments will come to and practice the SAME conclusion that God ordained IN their disbelief and/or IN their hatred of him.
     
    #34 Scarlett O., Aug 7, 2023
    • Winner Winner x 1
  15. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2014
    Messages:
    3,643
    Likes Received:
    642
    Faith:
    Baptist

    I am asserting a fallen human nature before a Holy, Omnipotent, Sovereign God who created and rules the Universe

    and I forgot Eternal
     
    #35 Marooncat79, Aug 7, 2023
  16. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2014
    Messages:
    3,643
    Likes Received:
    642
    Faith:
    Baptist

    If we are speaking of moral issues, then I am correct

    your math question is irrelevant to moralism, but it does attest to Gods wisdom in establishing mathematics and science
     
    #36 Marooncat79, Aug 7, 2023
  17. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2014
    Messages:
    3,643
    Likes Received:
    642
    Faith:
    Baptist

    It’s called the Moral Law.
    See Exodus chapter 20
     
    #37 Marooncat79, Aug 7, 2023
  18. Arthur King

    Arthur King Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2020
    Messages:
    491
    Likes Received:
    61
    Faith:
    Baptist
    If God never lifted a finger to punish sin, would sin itself still plunge sinners into destruction and misery? Yes or no?
     
    #38 Arthur King, Aug 7, 2023
  19. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2014
    Messages:
    3,643
    Likes Received:
    642
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Irrelevant question
     
    #39 Marooncat79, Aug 7, 2023
    • Winner Winner x 1
  20. Arthur King

    Arthur King Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2020
    Messages:
    491
    Likes Received:
    61
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The "atheist universe" is a hypothetical that is useful in properly defining what morality is. The question is IF the universe came to be from strictly material causes, and IF human beings were the product of evolution, would there still be sufficient grounds for objective morality? My argument is that if there is such a thing as human nature, and that human nature has universal bedrock desires for things like happiness and survival, and there is order in the universe, then that is sufficient grounds for objective moral values.

    Even the Christian vision of morality includes human happiness and long life. Heaven is everlasting life and happiness.
     
    #40 Arthur King, Aug 7, 2023
Page 2 of 7
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...