Arthur King
Active Member
Isn't that like saying "2+2 does not equal 4 without God"?
Not quite sure how that is that case.
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Yes, atheists can have objective morality
- Thread starter Arthur King
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Isn't that like saying "2+2 does not equal 4 without God"?
Not quite sure how that is that case.
it’s nothing like that at all
without God, murder is just survival of the fittest and fornication is ok because that’s what I want to do regardless of who it hurts or offends
stealing without God is just me getting mine
when you look at it, it looks just like our modern culture huh?
As someone who taught math for well over 30 years, I can honestly say that 2 + 2 equaling 4 - all the time and every time - is part of the orderliness of nature designed by God.
Where do nonbelievers get their moral nature?
I'll try to keep this short.
- from their parents, culture, and civilization
- where did THEIR parents get it? Same place
- And so on and so on for thousands of years
Cain KNEW that what he did was wrong. That's why he smarted off to God and said "Am I my brother's keeper?' That ALSO why he told God that everyone he met was going to want to kill him.
God made humanity in HIS image. That means we KNOW what a moral nature is.
Do we always choose it? Of course, not.
It's been passed down from peoples to peoples and incorporated into law after law after law after law that it's part of who we are as a civilization of human beings.
Just because a person will not acknowledge that God exists doesn't mean the moral code that God instituted has not reached him in some form or fashion.
I don't understand your belief that morality can exist outside of God.
It can exist in the behaviors of a nonbeliever, but not BECAUSE he is a nonbeliever.
No more irrelevant than you subjectively including Nazis and Jews in this discussion.
Which category does this fall into, Divine Command or Natural Law? Objective or subjective?
63 And it shall come to pass, that, as Jehovah rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you, so Jehovah will rejoice over you to cause you to perish, and to destroy you; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest in to possess it.
64 And Jehovah will scatter thee among all peoples, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou nor thy fathers, even wood and stone.
65 And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, and there shall be no rest for the sole of thy foot: but Jehovah will give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and pining of soul; Dt 28
Can something come from nothing?
Why is there objective reality?
37818
Well-Known Member
Because of whom God is, Acts of the Apostles 17:28, ". . . For in Him we live, and move, and have our being; . . ."
Arthur King
Active Member
"I can honestly say that 2 + 2 equaling 4 - all the time and every time - is part of the orderliness of nature designed by God."
So you are saying that in the atheist's universe, in which the universe is the product of material cause and effect, and life is the result of evolution, that sometimes 2 + 2 will not equal 4? Will 2 + 2 sometimes equal 10? or 10 billion?
"I don't understand your belief that morality can exist outside of God."
If human nature exists, and order in the universe exists, and happiness exists, and survival exists, then these are sufficient grounds for objective moral values.
You can argue that such things would not exist in the first place without God, but that is a different argument. "Without God, the universe would not exist" is a different argument than "Without God, objective moral values would not exist."
Arthur King
Active Member
No, an atheist could argue that murder is a violation of the goods of human nature. Things like survival and happiness for all.
The irony is that you are actually assuming a morally relativistic and morally subjective framework in the first place. "Morality is relative and subjective, this is why we need God to impose a standard on everybody."
People make cases for illogical, unbiblical, and incorrect statements all of the time. They are CONVINCED in their own minds that they are in the right. They aren't of course, but to prove the illogical - one has to insert a faulty mindset. It's a common thing.
Ah, it's precisely the same thing. That what you don't see.
Arthur King
Active Member
It's a yes or no question that you didn't answer:
"Are saying that in the atheist's universe, in which the universe is the product of material cause and effect, and life is the result of evolution, that sometimes 2 + 2 will not equal 4? Will 2 + 2 sometimes equal 10? or 10 billion?"
Whether or not people will wrongly think 2+2 equals 10 is irrelevant. We are talking about objective reality.
Now, the assertion of the OP, which is that without Him we live and move and have our being. For the OP, God is irrelevant to having objective truth. Objective truth would exist without God. Do you agree with the OP?
37818
Well-Known Member
LOL. Ojective truth originates with God, per John 14:6, John 1:2-3.
2 + 2 = 4 for all people for all time. That's the only thing that 2 + 2 will ever equal.
I didn't answer yes or no because there is no "atheist's universe" as you assert. There is only God's universe.
No, 2 + 2 will only and always be 4.
I don't understand why you think believe that pagans, atheists, and/or those who hate God and his commandments will come to and practice the SAME conclusion that God ordained IN their disbelief and/or IN their hatred of him.
I am asserting a fallen human nature before a Holy, Omnipotent, Sovereign God who created and rules the Universe
and I forgot Eternal
If we are speaking of moral issues, then I am correct
your math question is irrelevant to moralism, but it does attest to Gods wisdom in establishing mathematics and science
Arthur King
Active Member
If God never lifted a finger to punish sin, would sin itself still plunge sinners into destruction and misery? Yes or no?
Irrelevant question
Arthur King
Active Member
The "atheist universe" is a hypothetical that is useful in properly defining what morality is. The question is IF the universe came to be from strictly material causes, and IF human beings were the product of evolution, would there still be sufficient grounds for objective morality? My argument is that if there is such a thing as human nature, and that human nature has universal bedrock desires for things like happiness and survival, and there is order in the universe, then that is sufficient grounds for objective moral values.
Even the Christian vision of morality includes human happiness and long life. Heaven is everlasting life and happiness.
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