Featured Penal Substitution Atonement Theory - Question

Brother, there was no party in hell. Every demon knows Jesus is Lord and trembles in fear ALL the time. They know their end is the lake of fire. No celebration, ever!

peace to you

 

Why would I be saying something so dumb?

Ultimately, separating them from not only God and all things righteous but also anyone else that they can harm.

Avenging their victims - among other things...

Revelation 6:10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”

II Peter 3:7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.​

 

Nor are any of them actually in Hell to begin with.

 

What I do not do with them is contrive a doctrine that is in direct and explicit contradiction to Jesus' own words.

 

"Ultimately, separating them from not only God and all things righteous but also anyone else that they can harm."

So God is unjust if he does not separate sinners from other sinners who can do them harm? Sinners deserve from God that they are separated from other sinners who they can harm or suffer harm from?

"Avenging their victims - among other things..."

Wait...where did these innocent victims come from to whom God owes that they be avenged? The Bible says there is none righteous, not one.

But you seem to have in view that there are righteous people who are entitled to God's vengeance on their behalf, and God is unjust if He does not give them what they are owed.

 

Jesus own explicit words that the devil is a murderer seeking to kill him?

Or when he refers to his crucifixion as the "coming of the ruler of this world"? (John 14:30)

Hebrews 2:14 says that Jesus put on flesh and blood "so that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil." Who had the power of death? The devil. How was he rendered powerless? The death of Christ.

Why? Because the devil unjustly killed one who was without sin.

 

Interesting. Maybe start a thread about where the demons are now. Scripture teaches very little about the subject but I have believed many (most?) are already in hell.

peace to you

 

When Christ was in the Garden, he asked the Father to abandon the suffering and death He was to endure… it’s not my will, it’s your will. He was met with silence. Wasn’t that enough of a testimony?

 

“My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”

So who made Satan? Couldn’t the creator of this beast have both foreseen and stopped the crucifixion? Ultimately the Father controlled the outcome. You are suggesting He sat passively by while Satan manipulated man to exterminate the Son… there has to be a reason for it, a plan and an accomplished goal to warrant Christs suffering and death!

 

Matthew 26: 53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

The crucifixion of Jesus Christ was inevitable!... If not we would still be in our sins... Jesus Christ OUR righteousness... Brother Glen

 

Hmmm, isn’t there a saying that the ends justify….oh, just “forget about it” as we say in Northern Jersey. Results are what counts!

 

But you have been to NY? NJ was the suburb of NYC in the NW area with different ethnicities…. At one point, dominated by the Dutch but much has changed and races have blended, come and gone. The RCC was the dominant church and still holds sway in many towns just as Baptists dominated much of the south. Traffic heads east to NY for jobs in the morning and back west to the many suburbs in the evenings… nothing special. Weather gets cold, snowy and rainy after September/October and stays that way till April/May. Taxes are high, people are secular and mostly worn out from the pace of life. We all look forward to the holidays with Christmas dominating the celebrations and downtime and summers giving a bit of rest for vacations … generally short. What else can I tell you. Nothing to see here.

 

Are you saying that I need to explain to you what it is about evil that makes it evil?

Fine!

God is not arbitrary! He is just! Therefore, the things that are evil are not so simply because God declared them to be evil. Indeed, why evil is evil is explained to us in scripture. Evil is anti-life. That which is proper to life, promotes it, edifies it, etc is the good, that which not proper to life, harms, destroys or otherwise undermines life is the evil.

Deuteronomy 30:15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil,

Deuteronomy 30:19 "I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;

Proverbs 11:19 As righteousness leads to life, So he who pursues evil pursues it to his own death.

Proverbs 12:28 In the way of righteousness is life, And in its pathway there is no death.​

It is precisely the misery, destruction and death that actions create that make those actions evil. That's what evil is.

I completely agree. I just about doesn't matter how important the doctrine is, right? I just didn't expect to have to establish biblically what the difference between right and wrong is.

Also, your idea that God could just forgo punishing the wicked, (a doctrine that is just a hair's breadth from blasphemy in my view, by the way), and simply allow them to wallow around in their own misery, ignores the suffering of their victims, as was my point in my previous post about God avenging the martyred saints who were pleading with Him about how long He was going to wait to pull the trigger on getting the JUSTICE that they longed for.

I don't understand what it takes for you to understand that it doesn't matter! Was Jesus right or is your doctrine? That's what this comes down to.

Simple ad hominem nonsense.

I'm not going to repeat the arguments that have already been made more than once by more than one person and that I have myself repeated more than once. You're welcome to your opinion. If you think God's greatest gift to mankind was ultimately and primarily an evil act of Satan then you go right ahead and believe it. I can't help you.

 

I just cannot understand this!

Satan believed he was murdering God's Son but it was actually God who was offering Himself as a propitiation for sin. Was it Satan that made the big fish to swallow Jonah for three days? Do you think that it was Satan that killed the fatten calf or the Passover lambs who's blood was placed in more or less the shape of a cross on every Jewish doorway? Was it Satan that entered the Most Holy Place on the Day of Atonement?

I mean, for how long could one go on and on and on explaining that what happened at Calvary was GOD'S DOING, not Satan's? It would start to feel like one was quoting the whole of the Old Testament! And just forget that the book of Hebrews exists at all!

Look, I'm telling you that you're are taking this too far and robbing one of the most beautiful acts that God ever performed from Him and handing it to, of all the people in existence, Satan himself! You've gotta stop!

 

That’s right.. that’s what floored me. That God would not address Justice!