Penal Substitution Atonement Theory - Question

[canadyjd]

I agree with all that's been said and God used Satan for his own designed purpose but their must have been quite a party in HELL for 3 days, then THE PARTY WAS OVER!... Brother Glen

Brother, there was no party in hell. Every demon knows Jesus is Lord and trembles in fear ALL the time. They know their end is the lake of fire. No celebration, ever!

peace to you

 

[CJP69]

"God punishes it BECAUSE it brings misery and destruction."

Agree. God "destroys those who destroy the earth (Revelation 11:18)" in order to save the creation that he loves from destruction. So if God punishes in order to save creation from sin's destruction, are you saying that God owes his creation salvation? That he is unjust if he doesn't save his creation from sin's destruction?

Why would I be saying something so dumb?

Otherwise, the question you have to answer is what God's punishment is doing to sinners that sinners are not already doing to themselves?

Ultimately, separating them from not only God and all things righteous but also anyone else that they can harm.

If sinners are already bringing misery and destruction upon themselves through their own sin, then what is God doing by bringing misery and destruction upon them with his wrath?

Avenging their victims - among other things...

Revelation 6:10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”

II Peter 3:7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.​

 

[CJP69]

Brother, there was no party in hell. Every demon knows Jesus is Lord and trembles in fear ALL the time. They know their end is the lake of fire. No celebration, ever!

peace to you

Nor are any of them actually in Hell to begin with.

 

[CJP69]

What do you do with passages such as these?

Luke 22

Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which is called the Passover, was approaching. 2 The chief priests and the scribes were seeking how they might put Him to death; for they were afraid of the people.

And Satan entered into Judas who was called Iscariot, belonging to the number of the twelve. 4 And he went away and discussed with the chief priests and officers how he might betray Him to them. 5 They were glad and agreed to give him money. 6 So he consented, and began seeking a good opportunity to betray Him to them apart from the crowd.

John 13

26 Jesus then *answered, “That is the one for whom I shall dip the morsel and give it to him.” So when He had dipped the morsel, He *took and *gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. 27 After the morsel, Satan then entered into him. Therefore Jesus *said to him, “What you do, do quickly.” 28 Now no one of those reclining at the table knew for what purpose He had said this to him.

John 8

You are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. 41 You are doing the deeds of your father.” They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him.

What I do not do with them is contrive a doctrine that is in direct and explicit contradiction to Jesus' own words.

 

[Arthur King]

Why would I be saying something so dumb?


Ultimately, separating them from not only God and all things righteous but also anyone else that they can harm.


Avenging their victims - among other things...

Revelation 6:10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”

II Peter 3:7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.​

"Ultimately, separating them from not only God and all things righteous but also anyone else that they can harm."

So God is unjust if he does not separate sinners from other sinners who can do them harm? Sinners deserve from God that they are separated from other sinners who they can harm or suffer harm from?

"Avenging their victims - among other things..."

Wait...where did these innocent victims come from to whom God owes that they be avenged? The Bible says there is none righteous, not one.

But you seem to have in view that there are righteous people who are entitled to God's vengeance on their behalf, and God is unjust if He does not give them what they are owed.

 

[JonC]

Nonsensical question. God punishes it BECAUSE it brings misery and destruction. If He failed to do so, it would be unjust - BY DEFINITION!

Saying it does not make it so.

We have to keep a doctrine closer to Scripture when it comes to so important a doctrine.

Scripture offers descriptives of the author of Christ suffering and death ("evil", "sinful", "wicked", "by wicked men", "evil doers", of "their father, Satan").

Scripture calls Christ's suffering and death an act of sin, evil and wicked.

But Scripture does not offer passages stating that God is the author of Christ's suffering and death. That is mere philosophy.

 

[Arthur King]

What I do not do with them is contrive a doctrine that is in direct and explicit contradiction to Jesus' own words.

Jesus own explicit words that the devil is a murderer seeking to kill him?

Or when he refers to his crucifixion as the "coming of the ruler of this world"? (John 14:30)

Hebrews 2:14 says that Jesus put on flesh and blood "so that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil." Who had the power of death? The devil. How was he rendered powerless? The death of Christ.

Why? Because the devil unjustly killed one who was without sin.

 

[canadyjd]

Nor are any of them actually in Hell to begin with.

Interesting. Maybe start a thread about where the demons are now. Scripture teaches very little about the subject but I have believed many (most?) are already in hell.

peace to you

 

[JonC]

Interesting. Maybe start a thread about where the demons are now. Scripture teaches very little about the subject but I have believed many (most?) are already in hell.

peace to you

I agree with @CJP69 on this one.

Hell is a place prepared for Satan and his demons. It is where they will ultimately be cast.

I believe that demons are currently active here, on earth.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Saying it does not make it so.

We have to keep a doctrine closer to Scripture when it comes to so important a doctrine.

Scripture offers descriptives of the author of Christ suffering and death ("evil", "sinful", "wicked", "by wicked men", "evil doers", of "their father, Satan").

Scripture calls Christ's suffering and death an act of sin, evil and wicked.

But Scripture does not offer passages stating that God is the author of Christ's suffering and death. That is mere philosophy.

When Christ was in the Garden, he asked the Father to abandon the suffering and death He was to endure… it’s not my will, it’s your will. He was met with silence. Wasn’t that enough of a testimony?

 

[JonC]

When Christ was in the Garden, he asked the Father to abandon the suffering and death He was to endure… it’s not my will, it’s your will. He was met with silence. Wasn’t that enough of a testimony?

Not quite. His prayer was if there was another way to let it be, but nevertheless His will be done.

That is my point. The Father offered His Son for us, the Son lay down His own life. It was God's will, His predetermined plan.

Why? That is centered on the Resurrection. This is the conclusion of Isaiah 53. This is Christ as the Firstborn of many brethren.

God offered His Son to suffer and die under the product of sin, authored by Satan, evil....the wages we earn. And He raises Him, vindicates Him, glorifies Him.

So no, that is not testimony to the point. God simply is not the author of sin. That distinction belongs to Satan.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Not quite. His prayer was if there was another way to let it be, but nevertheless His will be done.

That is my point. The Father offered His Son for us, the Son lay down His own life. It was God's will, His predetermined plan.

Why? That is centered on the Resurrection. This is the conclusion of Isaiah 53. This is Christ as the Firstborn of many brethren.

God offered His Son to suffer and die under the product of sin, authored by Satan, evil....the wages we earn. And He raises Him, vindicates Him, glorifies Him.

So no, that is not testimony to the point. God simply is not the author of sin. That distinction belongs to Satan.

“My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”

So who made Satan? Couldn’t the creator of this beast have both foreseen and stopped the crucifixion? Ultimately the Father controlled the outcome. You are suggesting He sat passively by while Satan manipulated man to exterminate the Son… there has to be a reason for it, a plan and an accomplished goal to warrant Christs suffering and death!

 

[JonC]

“My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”

So who made Satan? Couldn’t the creator of this beast have both foreseen and stopped the crucifixion? Ultimately the Father controlled the outcome. You are suggesting He sat passively by while Satan manipulated man to exterminate the Son… there has to be a reason for it, a plan and an accomplished goal to warrant Christs suffering and death!

God made Satan. And God causes all things to work together to His good

But God is not the author of sin. He is not the author of evil. He is not the author of wickedness. (And Scripture refer to Christ's suffering and death as a sin, as an evil, as a wickedness).

It was Satan, not God, who tempted Eve.

It was Satan, not God, who entered Judas


I understand the philosophy of putting God, by necessity, as the author of sin and evil. This is where I believe philosophy fails and we have to simply rely on Scripture.

 

[tyndale1946]

“My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”

So who made Satan? Couldn’t the creator of this beast have both foreseen and stopped the crucifixion? Ultimately the Father controlled the outcome. You are suggesting He sat passively by while Satan manipulated man to exterminate the Son… there has to be a reason for it, a plan and an accomplished goal to warrant Christs suffering and death!

Matthew 26: 53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

The crucifixion of Jesus Christ was inevitable!... If not we would still be in our sins... Jesus Christ OUR righteousness... Brother Glen

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

God made Satan. And God causes all things to work together to His good

But God is not the author of sin. He is not the author of evil. He is not the author of wickedness. (And Scripture refer to Christ's suffering and death as a sin, as an evil, as a wickedness).

It was Satan, not God, who tempted Eve.

It was Satan, not God, who entered Judas


I understand the philosophy of putting God, by necessity, as the author of sin and evil. This is where I believe philosophy fails and we have to simply rely on Scripture.

Hmmm, isn’t there a saying that the ends justify….oh, just “forget about it” as we say in Northern Jersey. Results are what counts!

 

[JonC]

Hmmm, isn’t there a saying that the ends justify….oh, just “forget about it” as we say in Northern Jersey. Results are what counts!

lol.....you know....I still have not visited Jersey.

Nah.....I'm saying God defeats evil.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

lol.....you know....I still have not visited Jersey.

Nah.....I'm saying God defeats evil.

But you have been to NY? NJ was the suburb of NYC in the NW area with different ethnicities…. At one point, dominated by the Dutch but much has changed and races have blended, come and gone. The RCC was the dominant church and still holds sway in many towns just as Baptists dominated much of the south. Traffic heads east to NY for jobs in the morning and back west to the many suburbs in the evenings… nothing special. Weather gets cold, snowy and rainy after September/October and stays that way till April/May. Taxes are high, people are secular and mostly worn out from the pace of life. We all look forward to the holidays with Christmas dominating the celebrations and downtime and summers giving a bit of rest for vacations … generally short. What else can I tell you. Nothing to see here.

 

[CJP69]

Saying it does not make it so.

Are you saying that I need to explain to you what it is about evil that makes it evil?

Fine!

God is not arbitrary! He is just! Therefore, the things that are evil are not so simply because God declared them to be evil. Indeed, why evil is evil is explained to us in scripture. Evil is anti-life. That which is proper to life, promotes it, edifies it, etc is the good, that which not proper to life, harms, destroys or otherwise undermines life is the evil.

Deuteronomy 30:15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil,

Deuteronomy 30:19 "I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;

Proverbs 11:19 As righteousness leads to life, So he who pursues evil pursues it to his own death.

Proverbs 12:28 In the way of righteousness is life, And in its pathway there is no death.​

It is precisely the misery, destruction and death that actions create that make those actions evil. That's what evil is.

We have to keep a doctrine closer to Scripture when it comes to so important a doctrine.

I completely agree. I just about doesn't matter how important the doctrine is, right? I just didn't expect to have to establish biblically what the difference between right and wrong is.

Also, your idea that God could just forgo punishing the wicked, (a doctrine that is just a hair's breadth from blasphemy in my view, by the way), and simply allow them to wallow around in their own misery, ignores the suffering of their victims, as was my point in my previous post about God avenging the martyred saints who were pleading with Him about how long He was going to wait to pull the trigger on getting the JUSTICE that they longed for.

Scripture offers descriptives of the author of Christ suffering and death ("evil", "sinful", "wicked", "by wicked men", "evil doers", of "their father, Satan").

I don't understand what it takes for you to understand that it doesn't matter! Was Jesus right or is your doctrine? That's what this comes down to.

Scripture calls Christ's suffering and death an act of sin, evil and wicked.

But Scripture does not offer passages stating that God is the author of Christ's suffering and death. That is mere philosophy.

Simple ad hominem nonsense.

I'm not going to repeat the arguments that have already been made more than once by more than one person and that I have myself repeated more than once. You're welcome to your opinion. If you think God's greatest gift to mankind was ultimately and primarily an evil act of Satan then you go right ahead and believe it. I can't help you.

 

[CJP69]

Jesus own explicit words that the devil is a murderer seeking to kill him?

Or when he refers to his crucifixion as the "coming of the ruler of this world"? (John 14:30)

Hebrews 2:14 says that Jesus put on flesh and blood "so that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil." Who had the power of death? The devil. How was he rendered powerless? The death of Christ.

Why? Because the devil unjustly killed one who was without sin.

I just cannot understand this!

Satan believed he was murdering God's Son but it was actually God who was offering Himself as a propitiation for sin. Was it Satan that made the big fish to swallow Jonah for three days? Do you think that it was Satan that killed the fatten calf or the Passover lambs who's blood was placed in more or less the shape of a cross on every Jewish doorway? Was it Satan that entered the Most Holy Place on the Day of Atonement?

I mean, for how long could one go on and on and on explaining that what happened at Calvary was GOD'S DOING, not Satan's? It would start to feel like one was quoting the whole of the Old Testament! And just forget that the book of Hebrews exists at all!

Look, I'm telling you that you're are taking this too far and robbing one of the most beautiful acts that God ever performed from Him and handing it to, of all the people in existence, Satan himself! You've gotta stop!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Are you saying that I need to explain to you what it is about evil that makes it evil?

Fine!

God is not arbitrary! He is just! Therefore, the things that are evil are not so simply because God declared them to be evil. Indeed, why evil is evil is explained to us in scripture. Evil is anti-life. That which is proper to life, promotes it, edifies it, etc is the good, that which not proper to life, harms, destroys or otherwise undermines life is the evil.

Deuteronomy 30:15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil,

Deuteronomy 30:19 "I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;

Proverbs 11:19 As righteousness leads to life, So he who pursues evil pursues it to his own death.

Proverbs 12:28 In the way of righteousness is life, And in its pathway there is no death.​

It is precisely the misery, destruction and death that actions create that make those actions evil. That's what evil is.


I completely agree. I just about doesn't matter how important the doctrine is, right? I just didn't expect to have to establish biblically what the difference between right and wrong is.

Also, your idea that God could just forgo punishing the wicked, (a doctrine that is just a hair's breadth from blasphemy in my view, by the way), and simply allow them to wallow around in their own misery, ignores the suffering of their victims, as was my point in my previous post about God avenging the martyred saints who were pleading with Him about how long He was going to wait to pull the trigger on getting the JUSTICE that they longed for.


I don't understand what it takes for you to understand that it doesn't matter! Was Jesus right or is your doctrine? That's what this comes down to.


Simple ad hominem nonsense.

I'm not going to repeat the arguments that have already been made more than once by more than one person and that I have myself repeated more than once. You're welcome to your opinion. If you think God's greatest gift to mankind was ultimately and primarily an evil act of Satan then you go right ahead and believe it. I can't help you.

That’s right.. that’s what floored me. That God would not address Justice!

 

[JonC]

Are you saying that I need to explain to you what it is about evil that makes it evil?

Fine!

God is not arbitrary! He is just! Therefore, the things that are evil are not so simply because God declared them to be evil. Indeed, why evil is evil is explained to us in scripture. Evil is anti-life. That which is proper to life, promotes it, edifies it, etc is the good, that which not proper to life, harms, destroys or otherwise undermines life is the evil.

Deuteronomy 30:15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil,

Deuteronomy 30:19 "I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;

Proverbs 11:19 As righteousness leads to life, So he who pursues evil pursues it to his own death.

Proverbs 12:28 In the way of righteousness is life, And in its pathway there is no death.​

It is precisely the misery, destruction and death that actions create that make those actions evil. That's what evil is.


I completely agree. I just about doesn't matter how important the doctrine is, right? I just didn't expect to have to establish biblically what the difference between right and wrong is.

Also, your idea that God could just forgo punishing the wicked, (a doctrine that is just a hair's breadth from blasphemy in my view, by the way), and simply allow them to wallow around in their own misery, ignores the suffering of their victims, as was my point in my previous post about God avenging the martyred saints who were pleading with Him about how long He was going to wait to pull the trigger on getting the JUSTICE that they longed for.


I don't understand what it takes for you to understand that it doesn't matter! Was Jesus right or is your doctrine? That's what this comes down to.


Simple ad hominem nonsense.

I'm not going to repeat the arguments that have already been made more than once by more than one person and that I have myself repeated more than once. You're welcome to your opinion. If you think God's greatest gift to mankind was ultimately and primarily an evil act of Satan then you go right ahead and believe it. I can't help you.

No. I was saying that that you are assuming a type of judicial philosophy, when the punishment occurs, etc.

I never posted anything about evil being evil....only that God does not author sin or evil.



I posted - "Scripture calls Christ's suffering and death an act of sin, evil and wicked.

But Scripture does not offer passages stating that God is the author of Christ's suffering and death. That is mere philosophy."

Your reply was "Simple ad hominem nonsense."

Obviously you do not understand the meaning of ad hominem.


Scripture calls Christ's suffering and death an act of sin, evil and wicked. But Scripture does not offer passages stating that God is the author of Christ's suffering and death. That is mere philosophy by definition. It is not Scripture, not God's Word, not in the text of what is written. The only way to test it is via philosophy.