Penal Substitution Atonement Theory - Question

[kyredneck]

@CJP69 :

" Why would Jesus offer a blanket forgiveness to those performing the crucifixion if it was Satan doing it? "

There was no 'blanket forgiveness' for the crucifixion, not for the devil's children:

14 For ye, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judaea in Christ Jesus: for ye also suffered the same things of your own countrymen, even as they did of the Jews;
15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove out us, and pleased not God, and are contrary to all men;
16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved; to fill up their sins always: but the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost. 1 Thess 2

33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?
34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Mt 23

22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished Lu 21

41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those miserable men, and will let out the vineyard unto other husbandmen, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons. Mt 21

70 Jesus answered them, Did not I choose you the twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 Now he spake of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. Jn 6
22 For the Son of man indeed goeth, as it hath been determined: but woe unto that man through whom he is betrayed! Lu 22

 

[CJP69]

No. I was saying that that you are assuming a type of judicial philosophy, when the punishment occurs, etc.

I never posted anything about evil being evil....only that God does not author sin or evil.

The entire bible is all about a judicial philosophy. If the wicked need not be punished then Christ need not have died on the cross!

I posted - "Scripture calls Christ's suffering and death an act of sin, evil and wicked.

But Scripture does not offer passages stating that God is the author of Christ's suffering and death. That is mere philosophy."

Your reply was "Simple ad hominem nonsense."

Obviously you do not understand the meaning of ad hominem.

I very much do understand the meaning of that term and your "That's mere philosophy" is an outstanding example of it. It's just a baseless, totally unsupported and unsupportable, insulting statement designed to discredit my position in the minds of your audience based on an emotional reaction against the so frighten specter of "philosophy".

Text book ad hominem.

ad hominem
hŏm′ə-nĕm″, -nəm
adjective

1. Attacking a person's character or motivations rather than a position or argument.
2. Appealing to the emotions rather than to logic or reason.

Scripture calls Christ's suffering and death an act of sin, evil and wicked. But Scripture does not offer passages stating that God is the author of Christ's suffering and death. That is mere philosophy by definition. It is not Scripture, not God's Word, not in the text of what is written. The only way to test it is via philosophy.

All doctrine is philosophy, Jon. Every single doctrinal precept, every single rule of life, aspect of righteousness or evil, every statement right or wrong, justice or tyranny, all of it is philosophy, even when the bible says it.

And as I already told you, I will not repeat again the biblical arguments that have been presented here by more than person and on more than one occasion. Your showing up here and repeating your position does not count as a rejoinder to the refutations that have already been presented. Your failure to address them is a tacit admission that you cannot address them and I'll take that as a win before I grant you the ground of starting over again as though you've not already been refuted.[/quote]

 

[CJP69]

@CJP69 :

" Why would Jesus offer a blanket forgiveness to those performing the crucifixion if it was Satan doing it? "

There was no 'blanket forgiveness' for the crucifixion, not for the devil's children:

14 For ye, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judaea in Christ Jesus: for ye also suffered the same things of your own countrymen, even as they did of the Jews;
15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove out us, and pleased not God, and are contrary to all men;
16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved; to fill up their sins always: but the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost. 1 Thess 2

33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?
34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Mt 23

22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished Lu 21

41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those miserable men, and will let out the vineyard unto other husbandmen, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons. Mt 21

70 Jesus answered them, Did not I choose you the twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 Now he spake of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. Jn 6
22 For the Son of man indeed goeth, as it hath been determined: but woe unto that man through whom he is betrayed! Lu 22

Misses the point, entirely. Not to mention ignoring, once again, Jesus' own words.

 

[Arthur King]

I just cannot understand this!

Satan believed he was murdering God's Son but it was actually God who was offering Himself as a propitiation for sin. Was it Satan that made the big fish to swallow Jonah for three days? Do you think that it was Satan that killed the fatten calf or the Passover lambs who's blood was placed in more or less the shape of a cross on every Jewish doorway? Was it Satan that entered the Most Holy Place on the Day of Atonement?

I mean, for how long could one go on and on and on explaining that what happened at Calvary was GOD'S DOING, not Satan's? It would start to feel like one was quoting the whole of the Old Testament! And just forget that the book of Hebrews exists at all!

Look, I'm telling you that you're are taking this too far and robbing one of the most beautiful acts that God ever performed from Him and handing it to, of all the people in existence, Satan himself! You've gotta stop!

No, the Bible does not have the exclusionary perspective you do towards the acts of God's predestination and the sinful, unjust acts of human beings and Satan.

Acts 2:23, Peter says, “this Man (Jesus), delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of lawless men and put Him to death, but God raised Him up again, putting an end to the birth pains of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.”

It is true that God foreknew and predestined the crucifixion, AND that he was murdered by sinful human beings and Satan.

See also the book of Job:

Satan says, "put forth Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will surely curse You to Your face.” 12 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him.” So Satan departed from the presence of the Lord.

and again:

Satan answered the Lord and said, “Skin for skin! Yes, all that a man has he will give for his life. 5 However, put forth Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh; he will curse You to Your face.” 6 So the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, he is in your power, only spare his life.”

The Bible knows nothing of "God predestined/ordained it, therefore humans or Satan didn't act sinfully or unjustly."

God can ordain that sins and injustices take place without himself being unjust or the agent of sin.

 

[JonC]

The entire bible is all about a judicial philosophy. If the wicked need not be punished then Christ need not have died on the cross!



I very much do understand the meaning of that term and your "That's mere philosophy" is an outstanding example of it. It's just a baseless, totally unsupported and unsupportable, insulting statement designed to discredit my position in the minds of your audience based on an emotional reaction against the so frighten specter of "philosophy".

Text book ad hominem.

ad hominem
hŏm′ə-nĕm″, -nəm
adjective

1. Attacking a person's character or motivations rather than a position or argument.
2. Appealing to the emotions rather than to logic or reason.

All doctrine is philosophy, Jon. Every single doctrinal precept, every single rule of life, aspect of righteousness or evil, every statement right or wrong, justice or tyranny, all of it is philosophy, even when the bible says it.

And as I already told you, I will not repeat again the biblical arguments that have been presented here by more than person and on more than one occasion. Your showing up here and repeating your position does not count as a rejoinder to the refutations that have already been presented. Your failure to address them is a tacit admission that you cannot address them and I'll take that as a win before I grant you the ground of starting over again as though you've not already been refuted.

[/QUOTE]
No, the reason it is a philosophy is that your interpretation assumes a specific form of judicial philosophy.

Scripture does not state what you are saying. I understand that you believe that is what the Bible teaches, but we have to ask why you make those conclusions (what philosophy is driving your faith).

What the Bible does state is that sin produces death (death is the wage of sin) and that God will exercise Judgment on the wicked (the wicked are condemned already but this condemnation will be realized as God pours out His wrath (the "day of wrath") at Judgment ("on that day") and they will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

The idea that the wages of God for sin is death is absent Scripture. Sins can be forgiven. But death is still the product (the wage). On "that Day" God will pour out His wrath that "has been stored up for that day".



Identifying the fact that your belief is a philosophy because it is not in the Word of God "in "what is written") is not ad hominem.

As you don't know the meaning, I'll tell you - ad hominem is attacking the person rather than the ideas or arguments being expressed.

Calling the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement"mere philosophy" is not ad hominem even if calling it mere philosophy is incorrect

 

[CJP69]

The Bible knows nothing of "God predestined/ordained it, therefore humans or Satan didn't act sinfully or unjustly."

I think this entire argument is ridiculous and so will not engage it any further but I think it important that I make clear that the above sentence is you putting words in my mouth that do not belong there. I have never even implied any such grossly unjust thing in my entire life nor would I ever do so.

 

[CJP69]

Calling the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement"mere philosophy" is not ad hominem even if calling it mere philosophy is incorrect

I quoted the meaning directly from the dictionary in order to avoid precisely this sort of response. You know as well as I do that it was your intent to appeal to emotions rather than making a substantive argument. There isn't any other reason to say it.

Don't push it any further. I've done this long enough to know when I'm being talked down to. I can put you on ignore if need be although I'd prefer simply letting the matter drop. You choose.

 

[JonC]

I quoted the meaning directly from the dictionary in order to avoid precisely this sort of response. You know as well as I do that it was your intent to appeal to emotions rather than making a substantive argument. There isn't any other reason to say it.

Don't push it any further. I've done this long enough to know when I'm being talked down to. I can put you on ignore if need be although I'd prefer simply letting the matter drop. You choose.

Yes, we both used the dictionary.

That is what I mean. My comment was simply not ad hominem. It was not intended to make you emotional or appeal to emotion. I was stating a fact.

We have "what is written". What you purpose is not written in the text of Scripture. It is philosophy, by definition.

Philosophy is not a bad word. You assume it is, therefore to you it is emotional. But you are wrong.

You make the claim that the entire bible is all about a judicial philosophy. But you do not offer substantial evidence to support that claim. The truth is you read judicial philosophy into Scripture.


The Bible states that sin produces death as a wage we earn. You interpret that as judicial philosophy, that the wages of God for sin is death. But that is not what the Bible states.


I understand that you believe anybody who disagrees with you is talking down to you. But that is your insecurity - something you need to own rather than project onto other people.

 

[CJP69]

Yes, we both used the dictionary.

That is what I mean. My comment was simply not ad hominem. It was not intended to make you emotional or appeal to emotion. I was stating a fact.

We have "what is written". What you purpose is not written in the text of Scripture. It is philosophy, by definition.

I reject the premise. All of scripture is philosophy and reject the juxtaposition of the two. It is a false dichotomy.

Philosophy is not a bad word. You assume it is, therefore to you it is emotional. But you are wrong.

You make the claim that the entire bible is all about a judicial philosophy. But you do not offer substantial evidence to support that claim. The truth is you read judicial philosophy into Scripture.

It is your use of the term that I took to be an appeal to emotion, not the word itself. I happen to love philosophy, Christian (i.e. biblical) philosophy in particular.

And I did provide substantial evidence! Was Jesus not crucified for sin? What it not done on our behalf? What on planet Earth is that if not both judicial philosophy and penal substitution?

The Bible states that sin produces death as a wage we earn. You interpret that as judicial philosophy, that the wages of God for sin is death. But that is not what the Bible states.

Of course this is precisely what the bible states - verbatim.

Genesis 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Deuteronomy 24:16 “Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall children be put to death for their fathers; a person shall be put to death for his own sin.

Proverbs 8:36 But he who sins against me wrongs his own soul; All those who hate me love death.”

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned

Romans 5:21so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

(I could practically quote the entire book of Romans)

1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.

James 1:15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

James 5:20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.​

The connection between sin and death is so blatantly clear and obvious that it cannot be denied except for some weird a-prior doctrinal reason.

I understand that you believe anybody who disagrees with you is talking down to you. But that is your insecurity - something you need to own rather than project onto other people.

I never said that! I have some of the thickest skin of anyone you're likely to meet but I know condescension when I read it. If that wasn't your intent then you need to pay closer attention to the words your use. It is not my responsibility to read your mind and somehow know what you meant.

 

[kyredneck]

Misses the point, entirely. Not to mention ignoring, once again, Jesus' own words.

??? I quoted Jesus.

 

[JonC]

I reject the premise. All of scripture is philosophy and reject the juxtaposition of the two. It is a false dichotomy.


It is your use of the term that I took to be an appeal to emotion, not the word itself. I happen to love philosophy, Christian (i.e. biblical) philosophy in particular.

And I did provide substantial evidence! Was Jesus not crucified for sin? What it not done on our behalf? What on planet Earth is that if not both judicial philosophy and penal substitution?


Of course this is precisely what the bible states - verbatim.

Genesis 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Deuteronomy 24:16 “Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall children be put to death for their fathers; a person shall be put to death for his own sin.

Proverbs 8:36 But he who sins against me wrongs his own soul; All those who hate me love death.”

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned

Romans 5:21so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

(I could practically quote the entire book of Romans)

1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.

James 1:15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

James 5:20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.​

The connection between sin and death is so blatantly clear and obvious that it cannot be denied except for some weird a-prior doctrinal reason.


I never said that! I have some of the thickest skin of anyone you're likely to meet but I know condescension when I read it. If that wasn't your intent then you need to pay closer attention to the words your use. It is not my responsibility to read your mind and somehow know what you meant.

We do disagree.

I view Scripture as God's Word. Philosophy is often what we do with His Word.

I also believe that Scripture is objective (philosophy is, by definition, subjective).

These differences help explain where we stand on different ground.

I believe that we test Scripture against God's Word (against "what is written"....the text) rather than against what we believe is taught or develop through philosophy.



Condescension certainly was not my intent, and it was not there. It was something you inferred in my post, but it was never implied. I typically post exactly what I mean. I'd suggest trying to read posts without reading emotions or tone into them. This is an online forum and tone is typically inferred rather than actually implied.

 

[JonC]

I reject the premise. All of scripture is philosophy and reject the juxtaposition of the two. It is a false dichotomy.


It is your use of the term that I took to be an appeal to emotion, not the word itself. I happen to love philosophy, Christian (i.e. biblical) philosophy in particular.

And I did provide substantial evidence! Was Jesus not crucified for sin? What it not done on our behalf? What on planet Earth is that if not both judicial philosophy and penal substitution?


Of course this is precisely what the bible states - verbatim.

Genesis 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Deuteronomy 24:16 “Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall children be put to death for their fathers; a person shall be put to death for his own sin.

Proverbs 8:36 But he who sins against me wrongs his own soul; All those who hate me love death.”

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned

Romans 5:21so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

(I could practically quote the entire book of Romans)

1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.

James 1:15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

James 5:20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.​

The connection between sin and death is so blatantly clear and obvious that it cannot be denied except for some weird a-prior doctrinal reason.


I never said that! I have some of the thickest skin of anyone you're likely to meet but I know condescension when I read it. If that wasn't your intent then you need to pay closer attention to the words your use. It is not my responsibility to read your mind and somehow know what you meant.

OK, let's look at your claim and the passages you have offered as stating verbatim that "the wages of God for sin is death" rather than the wages of sin is death.


Genesis 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

Does this verse state verbatim that the wages of God for sin is death? No.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Does this verse state verbatim that the wages of God for sin is death? No.

It actually states, verbatim, what I have claimed - that the wages of sin is death. What is of God? The gift of life in Christ Jesus.


Deuteronomy 24:16 “Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall children be put to death for their fathers; a person shall be put to death for his own sin.

Does this verse state verbatim that the wages of God for sin is death? No.


Proverbs 8:36 But he who sins against me wrongs his own soul; All those who hate me love death.”

Does this verse state verbatim that the wages of God for sin is death? No.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned

Does this verse state verbatim that the wages of God for sin is death? No.


Romans 5:21so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Does this verse state verbatim that the wages of God for sin is death? No.

Romans 6:10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

Does this verse state verbatim that the wages of God for sin is death? No.

You said that you could practically quote the entire book of Romans....BUT so far nothing you have quoted supports your argument. If you can't even find ONE verse to back up your theory, then what makes you think you can find an entire book????

1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.

Does this verse state verbatim that the wages of God for sin is death? No.

James 1:15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

Does this verse state verbatim that the wages of God for sin is death? No. IN FACT - this verse is EXACTLY what @Arthur King has been saying repeatedly - SIN BRINGS FORTH DEATH.

James 5:20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

Does this verse state verbatim that the wages of God for sin is death? No.


The problem here is you say one thing but offer verses that say something entirely different as your evidence.

That's what I mean by mere philosophy. Your theory rests on your presuppositions, on your already held ideas, rather than on God's Word.

EVERY ONE OF THOSE VERSES support what @Arthur King and I have said about the relationship between sin and death. NOT EVEN ONE of those verses support, much less state verbatim, what you claim.

What you were arguing against was @Arthur King 's claim that sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

You proved his point with the passages you provided.

 

[kyredneck]

OK, let's look at your claim and the passages you have offered as stating verbatim that "the wages of God for sin is death" rather than the wages of sin is death.


Genesis 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

Does this verse state verbatim that the wages of God for sin is death? No.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Does this verse state verbatim that the wages of God for sin is death? No.

It actually states, verbatim, what I have claimed - that the wages of sin is death. What is of God? The gift of life in Christ Jesus.


Deuteronomy 24:16 “Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall children be put to death for their fathers; a person shall be put to death for his own sin.

Does this verse state verbatim that the wages of God for sin is death? No.


Proverbs 8:36 But he who sins against me wrongs his own soul; All those who hate me love death.”

Does this verse state verbatim that the wages of God for sin is death? No.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned

Does this verse state verbatim that the wages of God for sin is death? No.


Romans 5:21so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Does this verse state verbatim that the wages of God for sin is death? No.

Romans 6:10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

Does this verse state verbatim that the wages of God for sin is death? No.

You said that you could practically quote the entire book of Romans....BUT so far nothing you have quoted supports your argument. If you can't even find ONE verse to back up your theory, then what makes you think you can find an entire book????

1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.

Does this verse state verbatim that the wages of God for sin is death? No.

James 1:15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

Does this verse state verbatim that the wages of God for sin is death? No. IN FACT - this verse is EXACTLY what @Arthur King has been saying repeatedly - SIN BRINGS FORTH DEATH.

James 5:20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

Does this verse state verbatim that the wages of God for sin is death? No.


The problem here is you say one thing but offer verses that say something entirely different as your evidence.

That's what I mean by mere philosophy. Your theory rests on your presuppositions, on your already held ideas, rather than on God's Word.

EVERY ONE OF THOSE VERSES support what @Arthur King and I have said about the relationship between sin and death. NOT EVEN ONE of those verses support, much less state verbatim, what you claim.

Very informative post. Question: How is it that we were all once “children of wrath”?

 

[JonC]

Very informative post. Question: How is it that we were all once “children of wrath”?

We were once under condemnation - we were not born believing in Christ, and those who do not believe are condemned....we were not born children of God, "in Christ" (it is those who believe who have the right to be called children of God) but once "in Christ" (in Whom there is no condemnation) we "escape the wrath to come".

 

[Arthur King]

Very informative post. Question: How is it that we were all once “children of wrath”?

I would answer this way: since Adam, all humans have been born exiled from Paradise and the Presence of God, under the Genesis 3 curses, spiritually dead in our sins, consigned to physical death, living in creation that God has subjected to futility. Since Adam's exile, the wrath of God has been revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness. We are born into a world that is under the judgments of God. "Children of wrath" does NOT mean that God has some sort of personal hostility towards us as children, that would be absurd.

Now, it is essential to understand that these judgments are also for our protection. If Adam was not exiled from the Garden, he would have eaten from the Tree of Life and condemned himself and his descendants to everlasting spiritual death in sin (hell).

When Adam ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, he became spiritually dead immediately as the result of his own actions. If God never lifted a finger to punish sin, Adam would still have plunged himself and all humanity into everlasting destruction and misery. God's judgments actually prevent that from happening.

 

[CJP69]

??? I quoted Jesus.

“Go, call your husband, and come here.”

There! So did I.

 

[CJP69]

We do disagree.

I view Scripture as God's Word. Philosophy is often what we do with His Word.

That may be you own private definition of "philosophy" but it isn't what the word means.

I also believe that Scripture is objective (philosophy is, by definition, subjective).

You would need to use philosophy in any attempt to prove that claim.

See the point?

These differences help explain where we stand on different ground.

I believe that we test Scripture against God's Word (against "what is written"....the text) rather than against what we believe is taught or develop through philosophy.

The term you need to use is "doctrine" not "philosophy". The very act of "testing Scripture against God's Word (against "what is written"....the text)" is itself philosophy! Your use of the incorrect word amounts to your contradicting yourself and implying that there is something flawed with philosophy, which you couldn't know without the use of philosophy. It's just a never ending circle of self-contradiction.

Condescension certainly was not my intent, and it was not there. It was something you inferred in my post, but it was never implied. I typically post exactly what I mean. I'd suggest trying to read posts without reading emotions or tone into them. This is an online forum and tone is typically inferred rather than actually implied.

I'll take you at your word but I responded to the words on the page. It was your use of the term philosophy that caused the miscommunication and nothing else.

 

[CJP69]

OK, let's look at your claim and the passages you have offered as stating verbatim that "the wages of God for sin is death" rather than the wages of sin is death.


Genesis 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

Does this verse state verbatim that the wages of God for sin is death? No.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Does this verse state verbatim that the wages of God for sin is death? No.

It actually states, verbatim, what I have claimed - that the wages of sin is death. What is of God? The gift of life in Christ Jesus.


Deuteronomy 24:16 “Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall children be put to death for their fathers; a person shall be put to death for his own sin.

Does this verse state verbatim that the wages of God for sin is death? No.


Proverbs 8:36 But he who sins against me wrongs his own soul; All those who hate me love death.”

Does this verse state verbatim that the wages of God for sin is death? No.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned

Does this verse state verbatim that the wages of God for sin is death? No.


Romans 5:21so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Does this verse state verbatim that the wages of God for sin is death? No.

Romans 6:10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

Does this verse state verbatim that the wages of God for sin is death? No.

You said that you could practically quote the entire book of Romans....BUT so far nothing you have quoted supports your argument. If you can't even find ONE verse to back up your theory, then what makes you think you can find an entire book????

1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.

Does this verse state verbatim that the wages of God for sin is death? No.

James 1:15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

Does this verse state verbatim that the wages of God for sin is death? No. IN FACT - this verse is EXACTLY what @Arthur King has been saying repeatedly - SIN BRINGS FORTH DEATH.

James 5:20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

Does this verse state verbatim that the wages of God for sin is death? No.


The problem here is you say one thing but offer verses that say something entirely different as your evidence.

That's what I mean by mere philosophy. Your theory rests on your presuppositions, on your already held ideas, rather than on God's Word.

EVERY ONE OF THOSE VERSES support what @Arthur King and I have said about the relationship between sin and death. NOT EVEN ONE of those verses support, much less state verbatim, what you claim.

What you were arguing against was @Arthur King 's claim that sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

You proved his point with the passages you provided.

Honestly, I misread the post and would not have used the term verbatim has I read it correctly. Not that it really defeats the point I was making but only shows that I need to read more carefully.

This is what I get for engaging in a debate on a topic I care NOTHING about.

The single premise that destroys any such notions is that God is Life and a second premise does just as much harm to the position, God is Just. Indeed God is Life itself and God is Justice itself. The words derive their meaning from God's own person and character.

This doctrine, like so many others, is defeated by simply going back to good ol' theology proper. Death is the result of sin because it is a rebellion against the God who is Life and if God is just, then the wicked, including Satan (i.e. not because of him nor through him or anything else related to Satan), will be punished (i.e. they will die) because that's what they actually deserve for having rebelled against Life Itself.

 

[JonC]

That may be you own private definition of "philosophy" but it isn't what the word means.


You would need to use philosophy in any attempt to prove that claim.

See the point?


The term you need to use is "doctrine" not "philosophy". The very act of "testing Scripture against God's Word (against "what is written"....the text)" is itself philosophy! Your use of the incorrect word amounts to your contradicting yourself and implying that there is something flawed with philosophy, which you couldn't know without the use of philosophy. It's just a never ending circle of self-contradiction.


I'll take you at your word but I responded to the words on the page. It was your use of the term philosophy that caused the miscommunication and nothing else.

I don't need to use philosophy to prove Scripture is objective. I already proved it (I stated that by Scripture I mean "what is written", the text of Scripture").

That is objective. We all have the same text, can reference the same translations and source documents. It is objective.

But when used to develop ideas and theories, that is philosophy.

For example - "sin brings forth death" is objective. You can count the words, the letters. Sin brings forth death

Now, if I were to say that means that God punished our sin with death then that is philosophy (it is deriving a teaching from those words, and it is subjective as others may derive opposing doctrines).

The act of testing doctrine against what is written is not philosophy. The act of testing doctrine against what we believe is taught in Scripture is philosophy and it is subjective.

I believe that sin brings forth death. I can test this against Scripture - sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

You rejected the idea that sin brings forth death
Compare that to Scripture - sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
That fails the test.
But compare it against what you believe (a judicial philosophy) - God must punish sin with death. Then it passes, but it is subjective.

See the difference?

We all do use philosophy to form our beliefs. My insurance is that those fundamental beliefs (beliefs upon which we build) should be limited to the text of Scripture.

 

[JonC]

Honestly, I misread the post and would not have used the term verbatim has I read it correctly. Not that it really defeats the point I was making but only shows that I need to read more carefully.

This is what I get for engaging in a debate on a topic I care NOTHING about.

The single premise that destroys any such notions is that God is Life and a second premise does just as much harm to the position, God is Just. Indeed God is Life itself and God is Justice itself. The words derive their meaning from God's own person and character.

This doctrine, like so many others, is defeated by simply going back to good ol' theology proper. Death is the result of sin because it is a rebellion against the God who is Life and if God is just, then the wicked, including Satan (i.e. not because of him nor through him or anything else related to Satan), will be punished (i.e. they will die) because that's what they actually deserve for having rebelled against Life Itself.

Lol.....yep. I've engaged in topics I care nothing about. I know what you mean.

Theology Proper is the study of God the Father (not His actions but His Person). You are talking about Hamartiology.

But here you are still doing what Barth called philosophy because you are going around the Cross. We cannot know the Father except as revealed through the Son.

And you are mixing up two very distinct things by combining them.

Sin brings forth death. The wages of sin is death. God does not need to punish sin because sin brings forth its own punishment.

God punished the wicked with wrath stored up until that day at Judgment.

Two separate things - it is appointed man once to die AND THEN the Judgment. This judgment is God's judgment on the wicked.