Featured Penal Substitution Atonement Theory - Question

The entire bible is all about a judicial philosophy. If the wicked need not be punished then Christ need not have died on the cross!

I very much do understand the meaning of that term and your "That's mere philosophy" is an outstanding example of it. It's just a baseless, totally unsupported and unsupportable, insulting statement designed to discredit my position in the minds of your audience based on an emotional reaction against the so frighten specter of "philosophy".

Text book ad hominem.

ad hominem
hŏm′ə-nĕm″, -nəm
adjective

1. Attacking a person's character or motivations rather than a position or argument.
2. Appealing to the emotions rather than to logic or reason.

All doctrine is philosophy, Jon. Every single doctrinal precept, every single rule of life, aspect of righteousness or evil, every statement right or wrong, justice or tyranny, all of it is philosophy, even when the bible says it.

And as I already told you, I will not repeat again the biblical arguments that have been presented here by more than person and on more than one occasion. Your showing up here and repeating your position does not count as a rejoinder to the refutations that have already been presented. Your failure to address them is a tacit admission that you cannot address them and I'll take that as a win before I grant you the ground of starting over again as though you've not already been refuted.[/quote]

 

Misses the point, entirely. Not to mention ignoring, once again, Jesus' own words.

 

No, the Bible does not have the exclusionary perspective you do towards the acts of God's predestination and the sinful, unjust acts of human beings and Satan.

Acts 2:23, Peter says, “this Man (Jesus), delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of lawless men and put Him to death, but God raised Him up again, putting an end to the birth pains of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.”

It is true that God foreknew and predestined the crucifixion, AND that he was murdered by sinful human beings and Satan.

See also the book of Job:

Satan says, "put forth Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will surely curse You to Your face.” 12 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him.” So Satan departed from the presence of the Lord.

and again:

Satan answered the Lord and said, “Skin for skin! Yes, all that a man has he will give for his life. 5 However, put forth Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh; he will curse You to Your face.” 6 So the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, he is in your power, only spare his life.”

The Bible knows nothing of "God predestined/ordained it, therefore humans or Satan didn't act sinfully or unjustly."

God can ordain that sins and injustices take place without himself being unjust or the agent of sin.

 

I think this entire argument is ridiculous and so will not engage it any further but I think it important that I make clear that the above sentence is you putting words in my mouth that do not belong there. I have never even implied any such grossly unjust thing in my entire life nor would I ever do so.

 

I quoted the meaning directly from the dictionary in order to avoid precisely this sort of response. You know as well as I do that it was your intent to appeal to emotions rather than making a substantive argument. There isn't any other reason to say it.

Don't push it any further. I've done this long enough to know when I'm being talked down to. I can put you on ignore if need be although I'd prefer simply letting the matter drop. You choose.

 

I reject the premise. All of scripture is philosophy and reject the juxtaposition of the two. It is a false dichotomy.

It is your use of the term that I took to be an appeal to emotion, not the word itself. I happen to love philosophy, Christian (i.e. biblical) philosophy in particular.

And I did provide substantial evidence! Was Jesus not crucified for sin? What it not done on our behalf? What on planet Earth is that if not both judicial philosophy and penal substitution?

Of course this is precisely what the bible states - verbatim.

Genesis 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Deuteronomy 24:16 “Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall children be put to death for their fathers; a person shall be put to death for his own sin.

Proverbs 8:36 But he who sins against me wrongs his own soul; All those who hate me love death.”

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned

Romans 5:21so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

(I could practically quote the entire book of Romans)

1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.

James 1:15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

James 5:20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.​

The connection between sin and death is so blatantly clear and obvious that it cannot be denied except for some weird a-prior doctrinal reason.

I never said that! I have some of the thickest skin of anyone you're likely to meet but I know condescension when I read it. If that wasn't your intent then you need to pay closer attention to the words your use. It is not my responsibility to read your mind and somehow know what you meant.

 

I would answer this way: since Adam, all humans have been born exiled from Paradise and the Presence of God, under the Genesis 3 curses, spiritually dead in our sins, consigned to physical death, living in creation that God has subjected to futility. Since Adam's exile, the wrath of God has been revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness. We are born into a world that is under the judgments of God. "Children of wrath" does NOT mean that God has some sort of personal hostility towards us as children, that would be absurd.

Now, it is essential to understand that these judgments are also for our protection. If Adam was not exiled from the Garden, he would have eaten from the Tree of Life and condemned himself and his descendants to everlasting spiritual death in sin (hell).

When Adam ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, he became spiritually dead immediately as the result of his own actions. If God never lifted a finger to punish sin, Adam would still have plunged himself and all humanity into everlasting destruction and misery. God's judgments actually prevent that from happening.

 

“Go, call your husband, and come here.”

There! So did I.

 

That may be you own private definition of "philosophy" but it isn't what the word means.

You would need to use philosophy in any attempt to prove that claim.

See the point?

The term you need to use is "doctrine" not "philosophy". The very act of "testing Scripture against God's Word (against "what is written"....the text)" is itself philosophy! Your use of the incorrect word amounts to your contradicting yourself and implying that there is something flawed with philosophy, which you couldn't know without the use of philosophy. It's just a never ending circle of self-contradiction.

I'll take you at your word but I responded to the words on the page. It was your use of the term philosophy that caused the miscommunication and nothing else.

 

Honestly, I misread the post and would not have used the term verbatim has I read it correctly. Not that it really defeats the point I was making but only shows that I need to read more carefully.

This is what I get for engaging in a debate on a topic I care NOTHING about.

The single premise that destroys any such notions is that God is Life and a second premise does just as much harm to the position, God is Just. Indeed God is Life itself and God is Justice itself. The words derive their meaning from God's own person and character.

This doctrine, like so many others, is defeated by simply going back to good ol' theology proper. Death is the result of sin because it is a rebellion against the God who is Life and if God is just, then the wicked, including Satan (i.e. not because of him nor through him or anything else related to Satan), will be punished (i.e. they will die) because that's what they actually deserve for having rebelled against Life Itself.