I do not. Rather it’s a doctrine. Same as the Doctrines of Grace.
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Penal Substitution Atonement Theory - Question
- Thread starter kyredneck
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Sooo you do not believe that man requires punishment… it’s all on Satan?
I was once a committed Roman Catholic. Raised with concepts of sin (mortal & venial), sacramental salvation, blah blah. But thru the grace of God I was able to discern a true plan of God and how he interacts with his children. Satan and his very existence confuses me like why does he even exist… what’s his purpose etc. Bottom line, I’m still Learning.
I'd rather the thread focus remain on Satan's involvement in the crucifixion instead of atonement theories.
I know your position but I was asking Jon what his understanding is.
No. I believe that death as the wages or product of sin is different from God's judgment on the wicked. I believe it is appointed man once to die (the wages of sin) and then the Judgment (God's judgment on the wicked, "Judgment Day").
One disagreement that I have with Penal Substitution Theory is that I do not believe human action places demands on God. God does not have to punish individual sins, but God will destroy the wicked at Judgment. His solution is recreation (those who are not wicked will live, those who are wicked will perish). This is not a demand on God but God recreating the World (a new heaven and a new earth, with new creations in Christ).
Christians are benefactors of rehabilitative justice (they are not guilty because they are no longer the same person). The part that was guilty must die.
The lost, at Judgment, have nothing to bring into the Kingdom. They are chaff and are burnt away just as our impurities are burnt away through the refining fire.
Another way to look at this is the new creation itself. What is impure is lost....whether the "old man" in us or lost people.
Arthur King
Active Member
God doesn't have to punish sin. He could just let humanity continually destroy ourselves in our own sinful behavior forever.
Do you not believe that sin is self destructive? Do you you not believe that if God never lifted a finger to punish sin, sin itself would still plunge sinners into destruction and misery?
We still sin though… even after salvation. So are we punished for those sins at the last judgement?
I believe that God treats his children as children. There is both temporal punishment and eternal punishment (for those who break serious mosaic laws and utterly disregard God). For those who are seriously sorry, there is Gods forgiveness and grace.
God is both mercy and Justice. Free will or more to the point, limited free will plays into this. I have the freedom to disregard the calling of the Holy Ghost, reject everything God stands for and live a life of sin (and believe me I’m tempted by Satan every day and twice on Sunday) but that’s where grace and conscience kick in. It stops me in my tracks. Sure I could do that particular sin but I will forever be punished for it (temporally for it). Because when I sin it hurts me and it hurts others. The forgiveness factor will kick in provided I regret my sin and pray for forgiveness. Let me ask you, wouldn’t God not offer someone both mercy & forgiveness to anyone who sincerely asks for it… someone who is regretting a past sin?
Yes. We will be "refined as silver" is refined. And some will escape as one escaping a fire.
Judgment, the wicked will perish. If that is all which exists in a man then that soul is indeed condemned.
If we are as unrefined silver, with impurities, then those impurities will be burned away. We will not take our sins into God's new Heaven and Earth.
The difference is that Penal Substitution Theory focuses on God's need, a demand of God, to punish actions rather than God's holiness.
The answer to your question, whether we (as Christians) will be punished for our sins at Judgment is "no". We will not. We are disciplined and refined, but not punished in the sense that God's wrath is on us.
This is a major theme of Scripture. God will not pour out His wrath on us but will instead deliver us just as He delivered Christ.
If you want to know how God will treat those who are in Christ then look to the Cross.
Christ suffered as we do under the wages of sin. He suffered oppression and death under the powers of Satan, under "evil", under "wickedness", by the actions of "evil doers" and "wicked men", by the "hands of wicked men" who were acting on behalf of "their father, Satan", and the action constituted "sin".
Yet God delivered Christ from the grave. Our hope is in Him.
Arthur King
Active Member
Alas, the arguments went un-answered.
1) Agree or disagree: God doesn't have to punish sin. He would be perfectly just to let humanity continually destroy ourselves in our own sinful behavior forever.
2) Agree or disagree: If God never lifted a finger to punish sin, sin itself would still plunge sinners into destruction and misery.
Arthur King
Active Member
God is perfectly just. And He would be perfectly just to let us plunge ourselves into destruction and misery by our own sinful behavior, without any active punishment on his part.
Do you believe sin only brings misery and destruction because God punishes it?
Arthur King
Active Member
I'm sorry you guys but this is all just one big gnat free camel swallowing contest!
Satan DID NOT take Jesus' life - period. Why would Jesus offer a blanket forgiveness to those performing the crucifixion if it was Satan doing it? That, along with the fact the Jesus was praying to the Father (i.e. not Satan) to "take this cup from Me" and then later He (Jesus) explicitly states that NNE takes His life from Him but that He laid it down of His own accord and has the power to take it up again (which only God can do, by the way). Did Satan cause God the Father to forsake Jesus too (Matthew 27:46 & Mark 15:34)?
What on planet Earth could possibly motivate anyone to believe that God's greatest gift to mankind, the very life of God the Son Himself, was actually an act of Satan, I will never understand.
SUPER WEIRD doctrine, boys! Better rethink it.
Read this thread. Lots for you to think about: Jesus is the new Jonah
Jesus explicitly states that the devil is a murderer seeking to kill him (John 8). The first gospel in Genesis 3 says that the serpent stuck a fatal wound to the child of the woman while suffering a fatal wound on his own head.
CJP69
Active Member
Saying it doesn't make it so.
Your personal opinions are unfounded and unconvincing.
Nonsensical question. God punishes it BECAUSE it brings misery and destruction. If He failed to do so, it would be unjust - BY DEFINITION!
CJP69
Active Member
The bible says a lot of things, Author. The fact that your weird doctrine, that you've contrived out of a handful of passages, openly contradicts the Seed's own explicit statements is sufficient to prove that your doctrine is false.
Have you ever heard the phrase "too clever by half"?
I agree with all that's been said and God used Satan for his own designed purpose but their must have been quite a party in HELL for 3 days, then THE PARTY WAS OVER!... Brother Glen
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John 5: 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son.
NO!... Jesus Christ paid for our sins past, present and future and in this life we are judged in the here and now not later by the Son who owns us lock, stock and barrel... So there are some sins the Lord didn't know about?... But if we as sheep go astray, there will be judgement, in this life... Brother Glen
To all his children remember
Hebrews 10: 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Arthur King
Active Member
"God punishes it BECAUSE it brings misery and destruction."
Agree. God "destroys those who destroy the earth (Revelation 11:18)" in order to save the creation that he loves from destruction. So if God punishes in order to save creation from sin's destruction, are you saying that God owes his creation salvation? That he is unjust if he doesn't save his creation from sin's destruction?
Otherwise, the question you have to answer is what God's punishment is doing to sinners that sinners are not already doing to themselves? If sinners are already bringing misery and destruction upon themselves through their own sin, then what is God doing by bringing misery and destruction upon them with his wrath?
Arthur King
Active Member
What do you do with passages such as these?
Luke 22
Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which is called the Passover, was approaching. 2 The chief priests and the scribes were seeking how they might put Him to death; for they were afraid of the people.
And Satan entered into Judas who was called Iscariot, belonging to the number of the twelve. 4 And he went away and discussed with the chief priests and officers how he might betray Him to them. 5 They were glad and agreed to give him money. 6 So he consented, and began seeking a good opportunity to betray Him to them apart from the crowd.
John 13
26 Jesus then *answered, “That is the one for whom I shall dip the morsel and give it to him.” So when He had dipped the morsel, He *took and *gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. 27 After the morsel, Satan then entered into him. Therefore Jesus *said to him, “What you do, do quickly.” 28 Now no one of those reclining at the table knew for what purpose He had said this to him.
John 8
You are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. 41 You are doing the deeds of your father.” They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him.
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