Penal Substitution Atonement Theory - Question

[CJP69]

No. Satan's seed bruised Christ. Just as foretold in Genesis 3:15. It's absolutely fully supported by scripture.

You keep repeating this claim but never establish it. In what way does the busing of the Seed of the woman's heel equate to Satan personally orchestrating His murder on the cross?

The cross would not ever had needed happen at all if not for Satan's success in Eden and thus Christ's death is a result of Satan's work but not in the sense the he was the one making the crucifixion happen! The crucifixion was God's plan, not Satan's. Dying as a propitiation for sin was the express purpose of His becoming a man in the first place. Jesus Himself states explicitly, as some have already quoted, that no one took His life from Him but that He laid it down of His own accord. That doesn't sound like Satan doing the work of the cross to me. The cross was certainly a necessary result of Satan's work in Eden, but the cross, along with the resurrection, was not a victory for Satan but rather it was ultimately the crushing blow to Satan's head.

How am I wrong?

 

[Arthur King]

You keep repeating this claim but never establish it. In what way does the busing of the Seed of the woman's heel equate to Satan personally orchestrating His murder on the cross?

The cross would not ever had needed happen at all if not for Satan's success in Eden and thus Christ's death is a result of Satan's work but not in the sense the he was the one making the crucifixion happen! The crucifixion was God's plan, not Satan's. Dying as a propitiation for sin was the express purpose of His becoming a man in the first place. Jesus Himself states explicitly, as some have already quoted, that no one took His life from Him but that He laid it down of His own accord. That doesn't sound like Satan doing the work of the cross to me. The cross was certainly a necessary result of Satan's work in Eden, but the cross, along with the resurrection, was not a victory for Satan but rather it was ultimately the crushing blow to Satan's head.

How am I wrong?

Read this thread: Jesus is the new Jonah

Jesus says that his death is an act of murder by the devil, which brought judgment on the devil. In speaking to the Pharisees in John 8, Jesus says,

You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him.

Jesus also says that his death is an act of judgment, but Jesus says it is judgment upon the devil. See John 12:31-33:

Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to Myself.” Now He was saying this to indicate what kind of death He was going to die.

Jesus does say that in his death “judgment is upon this world.” But who is being judged? “The ruler of this world will be cast out”. It is the devil, the “ruler of this world” who is being judged. Notice the parallelism between “Now judgment is upon this world; Now the ruler of this world will be cast out.” The judgment upon the world is casting out the ruler of this world. In John 14:30, when Jesus speaks of his death he says “the ruler of this world is coming.” Jesus again repeats this point in John 16:6-11, when he speaks about the sending of the Holy Spirit:

And [The Holy Spirit], when He comes, will convict the world regarding sin, and righteousness, and judgment: regarding sin, because they do not believe in Me; and regarding righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you no longer are going to see Me; and regarding judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

The gospels emphasize this narrative thread in other places. Before Judas betrays Jesus into the hands of sinners at the Last Supper, Jesus sees that Satan enters into him (John 13:27). Jesus sees his betrayal and murder as the work of Satan.

 

[canadyjd]

Read this thread: Jesus is the new Jonah

Jesus says that his death is an act of murder by the devil, which brought judgment on the devil. In speaking to the Pharisees in John 8, Jesus says,

You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him.

Jesus also says that his death is an act of judgment, but Jesus says it is judgment upon the devil. See John 12:31-33:

Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to Myself.” Now He was saying this to indicate what kind of death He was going to die.

Jesus does say that in his death “judgment is upon this world.” But who is being judged? “The ruler of this world will be cast out”. It is the devil, the “ruler of this world” who is being judged. Notice the parallelism between “Now judgment is upon this world; Now the ruler of this world will be cast out.” The judgment upon the world is casting out the ruler of this world. In John 14:30, when Jesus speaks of his death he says “the ruler of this world is coming.” Jesus again repeats this point in John 16:6-11, when he speaks about the sending of the Holy Spirit:

And [The Holy Spirit], when He comes, will convict the world regarding sin, and righteousness, and judgment: regarding sin, because they do not believe in Me; and regarding righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you no longer are going to see Me; and regarding judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

The gospels emphasize this narrative thread in other places. Before Judas betrays Jesus into the hands of sinners at the Last Supper, Jesus sees that Satan enters into him (John 13:27). Jesus sees his betrayal and murder as the work of Satan.

You are making s understanding the passage. Jesus is speaking of their desire to kill him because they are following their father, Satan, who was a murderer from the beginning.

Jesus clearly stated He lay down His life, no one took it from Him, despite the evil in their heart.

peace to you

 

[Arthur King]

You are making s understanding the passage. Jesus is speaking of their desire to kill him because they are following their father, Satan, who was a murderer from the beginning.

Jesus clearly stated He lay down His life, no one took it from Him, despite the evil in their heart.

peace to you

God is sovereign. It is true that God ordained Jesus' death, and that Jesus voluntarily went to his death, and that the devil murdered him.

Jesus explicitly states that the devil's deeds and desires were to murder him. The gospels are clear that the crucifixion was orchestrated by the devil. And this fits into the larger narrative of scripture of the serpent striking the Son of the woman who strikes his head (delivering a fatal wound while suffering a fatal wound), and the dragon seeking to devour the child of the woman clothed with the sun.

 

[canadyjd]

God is sovereign. It is true that God ordained Jesus' death, and that Jesus voluntarily went to his death, and that the devil murdered him.

Jesus explicitly states that the devil's deeds and desires were to murder him. The gospels are clear that the crucifixion was orchestrated by the devil. And this fits into the larger narrative of scripture of the serpent striking the Son of the woman who strikes his head (delivering a fatal wound while suffering a fatal wound), and the dragon seeking to devour the child of the woman clothed with the sun.

Please show me from the gospels where the devil “orchestrated” the crucifixion? The devil can only do what God allows/tells him to do.

Jesus said it was that very purpose He came. The crucifixion was God’s plan, not the devil.

The devil tried to convince Jesus to avoid the cross, offering Him all the kingdoms of the earth.

Peace to you

 

[JonC]

Please show me from the gospels where the devil “orchestrated” the crucifixion? The devil can only do what God allows/tells him to do.

Jesus said it was that very purpose He came. The crucifixion was God’s plan, not the devil.

The devil tried to convince Jesus to avoid the cross, offering Him all the kingdoms of the earth.

Peace to you

I think you are missing the point.

God DID allow Satan to cause Christ's suffering and death.

The Serpent orchestrated Adam's sin. He deceived Eve, Adam was tempted and ate of the fruit.

The title "Satan" means "adversary".

Peter is fairly clear, I think, that Christ died by the hands of the wicked (in the Psalms, He suffers and dies under "evil", by "evildoers") but this was God's predetermined plan.

 

[Arthur King]

Please show me from the gospels where the devil “orchestrated” the crucifixion? The devil can only do what God allows/tells him to do.

Jesus said it was that very purpose He came. The crucifixion was God’s plan, not the devil.

The devil tried to convince Jesus to avoid the cross, offering Him all the kingdoms of the earth.

Peace to you

Please, read this thread: Jesus is the new Jonah

If you have follow up, I am happy to respond. But we just hashed this out.

 

[canadyjd]

Please, read this thread: Jesus is the new Jonah

If you have follow up, I am happy to respond. But we just hashed this out.

So, you don’t have any scripture from the gospels that say the devil orchestrated the crucifixion. Ok,

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

I think you are missing the point.
.

The statement was the gospels are clear the devil orchestrated the crucifixion. I ask those passages be revealed to me because I can’t think of any that “clearly” say the devil orchestrated the crucifixion.

What I see in the gospels is the devil attempting to lure Jesus away from the suffering of the cross by promising to give Him all the kingdoms of the world.

If the devil is orchestrating the crucifixion, why is he attempting to prevent Jesus from going to the cross?

I will wait patiently for a direct answer

peace to you

 

[Arthur King]

So, you don’t have any scripture from the gospels that say the devil orchestrated the crucifixion. Ok,

peace to you

Luke 22

Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which is called the Passover, was approaching. 2 The chief priests and the scribes were seeking how they might put Him to death; for they were afraid of the people.

And Satan entered into Judas who was called Iscariot, belonging to the number of the twelve. 4 And he went away and discussed with the chief priests and officers how he might betray Him to them. 5 They were glad and agreed to give him money. 6 So he consented, and began seeking a good opportunity to betray Him to them apart from the crowd.

John 13

26 Jesus then *answered, “That is the one for whom I shall dip the morsel and give it to him.” So when He had dipped the morsel, He *took and *gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. 27 After the morsel, Satan then entered into him. Therefore Jesus *said to him, “What you do, do quickly.” 28 Now no one of those reclining at the table knew for what purpose He had said this to him.

John 8

You are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. 41 You are doing the deeds of your father.” They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him.

 

[JonC]

The statement was the gospels are clear the devil orchestrated the crucifixion. I ask those passages be revealed to me because I can’t think of any that “clearly” say the devil orchestrated the crucifixion.

What I see in the gospels is the devil attempting to lure Jesus away from the suffering of the cross by promising to give Him all the kingdoms of the world.

If the devil is orchestrating the crucifixion, why is he attempting to prevent Jesus from going to the cross?

I will wait patiently for a direct answer

peace to you

I understand the argument that God is the Author of sin because He is sovereign (that is essentially your argument). But I reject that argument.

Did God declare that the Servant would crush the Seed of the woman? Yes, of course. We all accept that passage.

BUT that does not mean that God is the one who crushed the Seed of the woman. It means that it pleased God to crush Him (it was God's will, His predetermined plan).

But Satan, not God, is the author of that evil.

Scripture repeatedly refers to the infliction of suffering and death upon Christ as "wicked", as "evil", as wrought by "evildoers".

Have you not yet realized that there are no passages that describe Christ's suffering and death as being wrought by God?

The question is what is actually behind the idea God is the source of Christ's suffering and death. I suggest it is Satan corrupting the gospel of Jesus Christ through men carried away by vain philosophy - not necessarily to prevent salvation but to overshadow important truths of the gospel. There is danger in changing God's revelation to us, the biggest being what is obscured.

The reason I say this is there are simply too many passages stating, again, that Christ's suffering and death was "evil", "wicked", a work of "wicked men", of "evil doers" but in accordance with "God's predetermined plan" as it was "the Lord's will that He be crushed" and there are no passages attributing this "evil", this "wickedness" to God.

 

[kyredneck]

The statement was the gospels are clear the devil orchestrated the crucifixion.

You embellish. Actually, the question was:

"Does the Biblical fact that 'the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan', was behind the crucifixion of Christ somehow contradict Penal Substitution Theory?"

Yes, it does.

I don't see that it would contradict the doctrine of Penal Substitution.

I agree with Martin, although he acts as if it destroys the theory of PST.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You embellish. Actually, the question was:

"Does the Biblical fact that 'the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan', was behind the crucifixion of Christ somehow contradict Penal Substitution Theory?"





I agree with Martin, although he acts as if it destroys the theory of PST.

I have a simple question, who created Satan?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You embellish. Actually, the question was:

"Does the Biblical fact that 'the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan', was behind the crucifixion of Christ somehow contradict Penal Substitution Theory?"





I agree with Martin, although he acts as if it destroys the theory of PST.

No is your answer Larry. Satans involvement does not contradict the Doctrine of PS. I do not understand why people would even think that.

 

[kyredneck]

Satan personally orchestrating His murder

18 For this cause therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only brake the sabbath, but also called God his own Father, making himself equal with God. Jn 5

1 And after these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Judaea, because the Jews sought to kill him. Jn 7

3 And the scribes and the Pharisees bring a woman taken in adultery; and having set her in the midst,
13 The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest witness of thyself; thy witness is not true.
22 The Jews therefore said, Will he kill himself, that he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come?
37 I know that ye are Abraham`s seed: yet ye seek to kill me, because my word hath not free course in you.
40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I heard from God: this did not Abraham.
41 Ye do the works of your father. They said unto him, We were not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof. Jn 8

53 So from that day forth they took counsel that they might put him to death. Jn 11

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You keep repeating this claim but never establish it. In what way does the busing of the Seed of the woman's heel equate to Satan personally orchestrating His murder on the cross?

The cross would not ever had needed happen at all if not for Satan's success in Eden and thus Christ's death is a result of Satan's work but not in the sense the he was the one making the crucifixion happen! The crucifixion was God's plan, not Satan's. Dying as a propitiation for sin was the express purpose of His becoming a man in the first place. Jesus Himself states explicitly, as some have already quoted, that no one took His life from Him but that He laid it down of His own accord. That doesn't sound like Satan doing the work of the cross to me. The cross was certainly a necessary result of Satan's work in Eden, but the cross, along with the resurrection, was not a victory for Satan but rather it was ultimately the crushing blow to Satan's head.

How am I wrong?

Bottom line, Christ had to die in order to conquer death … so it was the Will of the Father in order to bring Justice into the situation. Satan was the means of seducing the Pharisees into having Christ, and the Romans then carried out the will of the Jews Sanhedrin. Period the end. Christs appeal to the Father, asking if there is another way tells us just who’s plan it was… so our savior complied… propitiation… to turn aside wrath, specifically the wrath of God. Paul uses the word in Romans 3 when he says, God presented him [Jesus] as a sacrifice of atonement through faith in his blood—v. 25. The phrase “sacrifice of atonement “ means propitiation.

 

[JonC]

You embellish. Actually, the question was:

"Does the Biblical fact that 'the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan', was behind the crucifixion of Christ somehow contradict Penal Substitution Theory?"





I agree with Martin, although he acts as if it destroys the theory of PST.

The reason that it destroys the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement is that the theory views Christ as suffering the wrath of God on sinners (what is suffered is God's actions - His wrath against sin, rather than the wages of sin itself authored by Satan).

Penal Substitution Theory views death as God's punishment on man rather than the actual wages of sin (Satan being the source of that sin, that original sin by deceiving Eve, tempting Adam).

 

[kyredneck]

I have a simple question, who created Satan?

Why do you ask me a question you already know the answer to?

 

[kyredneck]

the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement

I agree with that, that it's a 'theory'.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Why do you ask me a question you already know the answer to?

Because I’m discerning and I consider you a brother with the true children of God. That’s why!