Featured Penal Substitution Atonement Theory - Question

I do not. Rather it’s a doctrine. Same as the Doctrines of Grace.

 

Sooo you do not believe that man requires punishment… it’s all on Satan?

 

I was once a committed Roman Catholic. Raised with concepts of sin (mortal & venial), sacramental salvation, blah blah. But thru the grace of God I was able to discern a true plan of God and how he interacts with his children. Satan and his very existence confuses me like why does he even exist… what’s his purpose etc. Bottom line, I’m still Learning.

 

I know your position but I was asking Jon what his understanding is.

 

God doesn't have to punish sin. He could just let humanity continually destroy ourselves in our own sinful behavior forever.

Do you not believe that sin is self destructive? Do you you not believe that if God never lifted a finger to punish sin, sin itself would still plunge sinners into destruction and misery?

 

We still sin though… even after salvation. So are we punished for those sins at the last judgement?

 

I believe that God treats his children as children. There is both temporal punishment and eternal punishment (for those who break serious mosaic laws and utterly disregard God). For those who are seriously sorry, there is Gods forgiveness and grace.

God is both mercy and Justice. Free will or more to the point, limited free will plays into this. I have the freedom to disregard the calling of the Holy Ghost, reject everything God stands for and live a life of sin (and believe me I’m tempted by Satan every day and twice on Sunday) but that’s where grace and conscience kick in. It stops me in my tracks. Sure I could do that particular sin but I will forever be punished for it (temporally for it). Because when I sin it hurts me and it hurts others. The forgiveness factor will kick in provided I regret my sin and pray for forgiveness. Let me ask you, wouldn’t God not offer someone both mercy & forgiveness to anyone who sincerely asks for it… someone who is regretting a past sin?

 

Alas, the arguments went un-answered.

1) Agree or disagree: God doesn't have to punish sin. He would be perfectly just to let humanity continually destroy ourselves in our own sinful behavior forever.

2) Agree or disagree: If God never lifted a finger to punish sin, sin itself would still plunge sinners into destruction and misery.

 

God is perfectly just. And He would be perfectly just to let us plunge ourselves into destruction and misery by our own sinful behavior, without any active punishment on his part.

Do you believe sin only brings misery and destruction because God punishes it?

 

Read this thread. Lots for you to think about: Jesus is the new Jonah

Jesus explicitly states that the devil is a murderer seeking to kill him (John 8). The first gospel in Genesis 3 says that the serpent stuck a fatal wound to the child of the woman while suffering a fatal wound on his own head.

 

Saying it doesn't make it so.

Your personal opinions are unfounded and unconvincing.

Nonsensical question. God punishes it BECAUSE it brings misery and destruction. If He failed to do so, it would be unjust - BY DEFINITION!

 

The bible says a lot of things, Author. The fact that your weird doctrine, that you've contrived out of a handful of passages, openly contradicts the Seed's own explicit statements is sufficient to prove that your doctrine is false.

Have you ever heard the phrase "too clever by half"?

 

I agree with all that's been said and God used Satan for his own designed purpose but their must have been quite a party in HELL for 3 days, then THE PARTY WAS OVER!... Brother Glen

 

John 5: 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son.

NO!... Jesus Christ paid for our sins past, present and future and in this life we are judged in the here and now not later by the Son who owns us lock, stock and barrel... So there are some sins the Lord didn't know about?... But if we as sheep go astray, there will be judgement, in this life... Brother Glen

To all his children remember

Hebrews 10: 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

 

"God punishes it BECAUSE it brings misery and destruction."

Agree. God "destroys those who destroy the earth (Revelation 11:18)" in order to save the creation that he loves from destruction. So if God punishes in order to save creation from sin's destruction, are you saying that God owes his creation salvation? That he is unjust if he doesn't save his creation from sin's destruction?

Otherwise, the question you have to answer is what God's punishment is doing to sinners that sinners are not already doing to themselves? If sinners are already bringing misery and destruction upon themselves through their own sin, then what is God doing by bringing misery and destruction upon them with his wrath?

 

What do you do with passages such as these?

Luke 22

Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which is called the Passover, was approaching. 2 The chief priests and the scribes were seeking how they might put Him to death; for they were afraid of the people.

And Satan entered into Judas who was called Iscariot, belonging to the number of the twelve. 4 And he went away and discussed with the chief priests and officers how he might betray Him to them. 5 They were glad and agreed to give him money. 6 So he consented, and began seeking a good opportunity to betray Him to them apart from the crowd.

John 13

26 Jesus then *answered, “That is the one for whom I shall dip the morsel and give it to him.” So when He had dipped the morsel, He *took and *gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. 27 After the morsel, Satan then entered into him. Therefore Jesus *said to him, “What you do, do quickly.” 28 Now no one of those reclining at the table knew for what purpose He had said this to him.

John 8

You are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. 41 You are doing the deeds of your father.” They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him.