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Featured Satan Murdered Jesus - The Scripture and Theology

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Arthur King, Oct 18, 2023.

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  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I quoted Acts 2:23.

    I am sure you agree that "no plan of God can be thwarted."
    If you take a big-picture view, it was not the Romans, the Jews, Satan, or even us who killed Jesus. Jesus was killed because it was the will of the Father. Jesus’ death on the cross was by God’s design so that we could have life through his death. If you want to place the blame for the death of Jesus at anyone’s feet, place it at the feet of the Father. Everyone else may have had a role to play, but all they were doing was carrying out God’s plan that was designed before the world’s creation.​
     
    #21 Van, Oct 20, 2023
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  2. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Yea. You!.

     
    #22 kyredneck, Oct 20, 2023
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  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    LOL, only someone like you would suggest I am accusing God of sin. The people acting as God's agents meant to do evil, but God's plan was for good, the Lamb of God would take away the sin of the fallen to be chosen by God.
     
    #23 Van, Oct 20, 2023
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  4. Piper

    Piper Active Member
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    Cognitive dissonance? What a crock.

    God ordained all things that have ever were, are and will be. That is consistent with the truth that he never sinned or acted in an evil way. How that happens is a mystery that will remain until eternity.
     
    #24 Piper, Oct 20, 2023
  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Mystery = Two Mutually Exclusive Truths = Cognitive Dissonance
     
    #25 Van, Oct 20, 2023
  6. Piper

    Piper Active Member
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    Untrue equation. You do not understand God.
     
    #26 Piper, Oct 20, 2023
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  7. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yet another "you" claim from the denier of God's word.

    God did not and does not predestine vie knowledge beforehand the sins we choose to commit. He orchestrated Christ's death as foretold in scripture. But His action was not authoring sin, but the gracious gift of everlasting life to those who believe.

    I quoted Acts 2:23. I am sure you agree that "no plan of God can be thwarted."

    If you take a big-picture view, it was not the Romans, the Jews, Satan, or even us who killed Jesus. Jesus was killed because it was the will of the Father. Jesus’ death on the cross was by God’s design so that we could have life through his death. If you want to place the blame for the death of Jesus at anyone’s feet, place it at the feet of the Father. Everyone else may have had a role to play, but all they were doing was carrying out God’s plan that was designed before the world’s creation.​
     
    #27 Van, Oct 20, 2023
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Many have come to the same conclusion (John Piper, J.I. Packer, and Tim Keller come to mind). Packer called this an antinomy.
     
    #28 JonC, Oct 20, 2023
  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yes, believing two mutually exclusive truths is against the law of rational thinking.

    To shroud obvious falsehood under "mystery dust" represents intellectual cowardice. Kant's - the problem of free will in relation to universal causality simply denies arbitrary actions or unintended results. We make choices within the framework of the choices we see, not the consequences the future may provide.
     
    #29 Van, Oct 20, 2023
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The only issue is it depends on human thinking (and with Packer's example, Western thought).

    For example, in the case of free will vs divine sovereignty, the assumption is that God exists as we do, His will acts as ours, therefore only one can make the determination at the exclusion of the other.

    But if God is above us (above human potential) in reasoning then we simply cannot state that God cannot control everything without actually authoring everything or contradicting human free will.
     
    #30 JonC, Oct 20, 2023
  11. Arthur King

    Arthur King Active Member

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    So wait, are you saying that Satan's role in the crucifixion was analogous to the Romans, Jews, and ourselves? In other words, Satan did murder Christ in the same way the Romans and others did, but this is subsumed under the sovereign action of God?

    Because this is a different position than that of @Martin Marprelate , who believes that Satan did not murder Christ at all, but instead was desperately trying to stop Jesus from dying.
     
    #31 Arthur King, Oct 20, 2023
  12. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Yea, @Martin Marprelate says Satan was too smart to get pulled into the crucifixion and changed his plans. Instead of seeking to kill Jesus he was trying to prevent Him from being killed.
    Classical vs Latin Atonement
     
    #32 kyredneck, Oct 21, 2023
  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Note this effort at sophistry rests of proclaiming God could hold mutually exclusive views, which of course is an argument from silence. God gave us rational minds to understand His revelation. To advocate an irrational view of God seem demonic to me.
     
    #33 Van, Oct 21, 2023
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2023
  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The issue is not what I think or what Mr. Marprelate thinks, but what scripture says.

    God did not and does not predestine vie knowledge beforehand the sins we choose to commit. He orchestrated Christ's death as foretold in scripture. But His action was not authoring sin, but the gracious gift of everlasting life to those who believe.

    I quoted Acts 2:23. I am sure you agree that "no plan of God can be thwarted."

    If you take a big-picture view, it was not the Romans, the Jews, Satan, or even us who killed Jesus. Jesus was killed because it was the will of the Father. Jesus’ death on the cross was by God’s design so that we could have life through his death. If you want to place the blame for the death of Jesus at anyone’s feet, place it at the feet of the Father. Everyone else may have had a role to play, but all they were doing was carrying out God’s plan that was designed before the world’s creation.​

    Jesus died not as the victim of Satan, but as the Lamb of God. Full Stop
     
    #34 Van, Oct 21, 2023
  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Who gave His Son, Satan or God?
    Who sent His Son, Satan or God?
    Who died as a ransom for all?
    Who bought those heading for destruction?
    When Jesus said, "It is finished" had He accomplished His mission for God or Satan?
     
    #35 Van, Oct 21, 2023
  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The issue is "mutually exclusive views". That is based on human understanding of those views (on what is truly excluded). But when it comes to truly exclusive views, I agree.

    We have to remember that God has revealed Himself to us. He has revealed that He is in control, and even Satan dies no act without His allowing it to be. At the same time Scripture reveals that we have free will.

    Man's decisions belong to man, but what occurs belongs to God.

    The question is whether God has revealed Himself to man for man to analyze Him or for man to obey Him. If the former then God is revealing Himself so that we can understand the mind of God. If we later then it is so that we will obey His will.

    In other cultures, ancient Hebrew, first century Judaism, ANE...to name a few....divine predestination and free will is not considered mutual exclusive. Even in ancient Greek philosophy Fate and free will is not exclusive (Oedipus is a good example).

    But in Western philosophy it is either-or. Either God has predestined everything or man has free will.
     
    #36 JonC, Oct 21, 2023
  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Unless God offered Jesus as a sacrifice and it was His predetermined plan that Jesus lay down His life and willingly die as a victim of Satan.

    The issue is that there are plenty of passages describing Satan as the author of Christ's death (those whose father is Satan killed Jesus, His death was a sin, His death was unjust, His death was the act of evil, of evil doers, of wicked men . . .). BUT there are no passages describing God as killing Jesus. It is literally a choice between the Bible and philosophy.
     
    #37 JonC, Oct 21, 2023
  18. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Again, an appeal to the fiction we should accept God holds views we see as mutually exclusive. This is simply an argument from silence.

    In summary, there is a rational view that holds that God is "all knowing" in that God knows whatsoever He chooses to know, while accepting God's revelation that He can remember no more our forgiven sins. There is absolute no reason to discard the rational view for an irrational assertion.
     
    #38 Van, Oct 21, 2023
  19. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Again....it depends on whether the views are actually mutually exclusive or if you just think they are.We cannot demand others submit to our understanding. We are not the arbitrator of truth.

    When you talk about God offering Jesus, and Jesus laying down His own life, and Jesus dying under the powers of Satan....that is non-negotiable because that is God's Word. When we work through that we have to be careful not to form a solution that denies Scripture.

    What "mutually exclusive views" are we talking about?
     
    #39 JonC, Oct 21, 2023
  20. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Please cite specific verses that proclaim the above fictions.
    Here is what scripture actually teaches:
    1) Jesus death was a victory over Satan. Hebrews 2:14
    2) Yes, the people who carried out God's plan were sinners under the influence of Satan. Not in dispute.
    3) Acts 2:23 says Jesus was put to death according to God's predetermined plan.​
     
    #40 Van, Oct 21, 2023
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2023
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