Satan Murdered Jesus - The Scripture and Theology

[Van]

Van,

Please quote the verse you are speaking of and bold the past where God put Jesus to death.

It seems we all agree that Christ's suffering and death was God's predetermined plan. And we all agree He was "pleased to crush Him". It was God's will that Christ give Himself as an offering.

There have been many passages describing Christ's death, while being God's predetermined plan, as "sin", "evil", done by "wicked men" and "evil doers".

But I have missed the ones stating that God killed Jesus.

I quoted Acts 2:23.

I am sure you agree that "no plan of God can be thwarted."

If you take a big-picture view, it was not the Romans, the Jews, Satan, or even us who killed Jesus. Jesus was killed because it was the will of the Father. Jesus’ death on the cross was by God’s design so that we could have life through his death. If you want to place the blame for the death of Jesus at anyone’s feet, place it at the feet of the Father. Everyone else may have had a role to play, but all they were doing was carrying out God’s plan that was designed before the world’s creation.​

 

[kyredneck]

We have had members outright rejecting points that are actually quoted Scripture.

Yea. You!.

...AND it was God that told the devil that he would bruise Christ! Genesis 3:14-15

But @Martin Marprelate says, 'Nope, God was wrong, Satan didn't do it'.

 

[Van]

That is not what it means... If it is you are accusing God of sin... He didn't stop it either!... If he did you would be an atheist corpse laying in a coffin in a three piece suit with one place to go!... Brother Glen

Matthew 26: 53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

LOL, only someone like you would suggest I am accusing God of sin. The people acting as God's agents meant to do evil, but God's plan was for good, the Lamb of God would take away the sin of the fallen to be chosen by God.

 

[Piper]

Note the use of the word "ordain." What does "ordain" mean? Predestine! If God predestines sin or injustice, God is the cause of that sin or injustice. To claim otherwise is to engage in cognitive dissonance. (Which is to hold to two mutually exclusive views.)

Act 2:23
this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
​

Cognitive dissonance? What a crock.

God ordained all things that have ever were, are and will be. That is consistent with the truth that he never sinned or acted in an evil way. How that happens is a mystery that will remain until eternity.

 

[Van]

Cognitive dissonance? What a crock.

God ordained all things that have ever were, are and will be. That is consistent with the truth that he never sinned or acted in an evil way. How that happens is a mystery that will remain until eternity.

Mystery = Two Mutually Exclusive Truths = Cognitive Dissonance

 

[Piper]

Mystery = Two Mutually Exclusive Truths = Cognitive Dissonance

Untrue equation. You do not understand God.

 

[Van]

Untrue equation. You do not understand God.

Yet another "you" claim from the denier of God's word.

God did not and does not predestine vie knowledge beforehand the sins we choose to commit. He orchestrated Christ's death as foretold in scripture. But His action was not authoring sin, but the gracious gift of everlasting life to those who believe.

I quoted Acts 2:23. I am sure you agree that "no plan of God can be thwarted."

If you take a big-picture view, it was not the Romans, the Jews, Satan, or even us who killed Jesus. Jesus was killed because it was the will of the Father. Jesus’ death on the cross was by God’s design so that we could have life through his death. If you want to place the blame for the death of Jesus at anyone’s feet, place it at the feet of the Father. Everyone else may have had a role to play, but all they were doing was carrying out God’s plan that was designed before the world’s creation.​

 

[JonC]

Mystery = Two Mutually Exclusive Truths = Cognitive Dissonance

Many have come to the same conclusion (John Piper, J.I. Packer, and Tim Keller come to mind). Packer called this an antinomy.

 

[Van]

Many have come to the same conclusion (John Piper, J.I. Packer, and Tim Keller come to mind). Packer called this an antinomy.

Yes, believing two mutually exclusive truths is against the law of rational thinking.

To shroud obvious falsehood under "mystery dust" represents intellectual cowardice. Kant's - the problem of free will in relation to universal causality simply denies arbitrary actions or unintended results. We make choices within the framework of the choices we see, not the consequences the future may provide.

 

[JonC]

Yes, believing two mutually exclusive truths is against the law of rational thinking.

To shroud obvious falsehood under "mystery dust" represents intellectual cowardice. Kant's - the problem of free will in relation to universal causality simply denies arbitrary actions or unintended results. We make choices within the framework of the choices we see, not the consequences the future may provide.

The only issue is it depends on human thinking (and with Packer's example, Western thought).

For example, in the case of free will vs divine sovereignty, the assumption is that God exists as we do, His will acts as ours, therefore only one can make the determination at the exclusion of the other.

But if God is above us (above human potential) in reasoning then we simply cannot state that God cannot control everything without actually authoring everything or contradicting human free will.

 

[Arthur King]

Yet another "you" claim from the denier of God's word.

God did not and does not predestine vie knowledge beforehand the sins we choose to commit. He orchestrated Christ's death as foretold in scripture. But His action was not authoring sin, but the gracious gift of everlasting life to those who believe.

I quoted Acts 2:23. I am sure you agree that "no plan of God can be thwarted."

If you take a big-picture view, it was not the Romans, the Jews, Satan, or even us who killed Jesus. Jesus was killed because it was the will of the Father. Jesus’ death on the cross was by God’s design so that we could have life through his death. If you want to place the blame for the death of Jesus at anyone’s feet, place it at the feet of the Father. Everyone else may have had a role to play, but all they were doing was carrying out God’s plan that was designed before the world’s creation.​

So wait, are you saying that Satan's role in the crucifixion was analogous to the Romans, Jews, and ourselves? In other words, Satan did murder Christ in the same way the Romans and others did, but this is subsumed under the sovereign action of God?

Because this is a different position than that of @Martin Marprelate , who believes that Satan did not murder Christ at all, but instead was desperately trying to stop Jesus from dying.

 

[kyredneck]

Because this is a different position than that of @Martin Marprelate , who believes that Satan did not murder Christ at all, but instead was desperately trying to stop Jesus from dying.

Yea, @Martin Marprelate says Satan was too smart to get pulled into the crucifixion and changed his plans. Instead of seeking to kill Jesus he was trying to prevent Him from being killed.
Classical vs Latin Atonement

 

[Van]

The only issue is it depends on human thinking (and with Packer's example, Western thought).

For example, in the case of free will vs divine sovereignty, the assumption is that God exists as we do, His will acts as ours, therefore only one can make the determination at the exclusion of the other.

But if God is above us (above human potential) in reasoning then we simply cannot state that God cannot control everything without actually authoring everything or contradicting human free will.

Note this effort at sophistry rests of proclaiming God could hold mutually exclusive views, which of course is an argument from silence. God gave us rational minds to understand His revelation. To advocate an irrational view of God seem demonic to me.

 

[Van]

So wait, are you saying that Satan's role in the crucifixion was analogous to the Romans, Jews, and ourselves? In other words, Satan did murder Christ in the same way the Romans and others did, but this is subsumed under the sovereign action of God?

Because this is a different position than that of @Martin Marprelate , who believes that Satan did not murder Christ at all, but instead was desperately trying to stop Jesus from dying.

The issue is not what I think or what Mr. Marprelate thinks, but what scripture says.

God did not and does not predestine vie knowledge beforehand the sins we choose to commit. He orchestrated Christ's death as foretold in scripture. But His action was not authoring sin, but the gracious gift of everlasting life to those who believe.

I quoted Acts 2:23. I am sure you agree that "no plan of God can be thwarted."

If you take a big-picture view, it was not the Romans, the Jews, Satan, or even us who killed Jesus. Jesus was killed because it was the will of the Father. Jesus’ death on the cross was by God’s design so that we could have life through his death. If you want to place the blame for the death of Jesus at anyone’s feet, place it at the feet of the Father. Everyone else may have had a role to play, but all they were doing was carrying out God’s plan that was designed before the world’s creation.​

Jesus died not as the victim of Satan, but as the Lamb of God. Full Stop

 

[Van]

Who gave His Son, Satan or God?
Who sent His Son, Satan or God?
Who died as a ransom for all?
Who bought those heading for destruction?
When Jesus said, "It is finished" had He accomplished His mission for God or Satan?

 

[JonC]

Note this effort as sophistry rests of proclaiming God could hold mutually exclusive views, which of course is an argument from silence. God gave us rational minds to understand His revelation. To advocate an irrational view of God seem demonic to me.

The issue is "mutually exclusive views". That is based on human understanding of those views (on what is truly excluded). But when it comes to truly exclusive views, I agree.

We have to remember that God has revealed Himself to us. He has revealed that He is in control, and even Satan dies no act without His allowing it to be. At the same time Scripture reveals that we have free will.

Man's decisions belong to man, but what occurs belongs to God.

The question is whether God has revealed Himself to man for man to analyze Him or for man to obey Him. If the former then God is revealing Himself so that we can understand the mind of God. If we later then it is so that we will obey His will.

In other cultures, ancient Hebrew, first century Judaism, ANE...to name a few....divine predestination and free will is not considered mutual exclusive. Even in ancient Greek philosophy Fate and free will is not exclusive (Oedipus is a good example).

But in Western philosophy it is either-or. Either God has predestined everything or man has free will.

 

[JonC]

Jesus died not as the victim of Satan, but as the Lamb of God. Full Stop

Unless God offered Jesus as a sacrifice and it was His predetermined plan that Jesus lay down His life and willingly die as a victim of Satan.

The issue is that there are plenty of passages describing Satan as the author of Christ's death (those whose father is Satan killed Jesus, His death was a sin, His death was unjust, His death was the act of evil, of evil doers, of wicked men . . .). BUT there are no passages describing God as killing Jesus. It is literally a choice between the Bible and philosophy.

 

[Van]

The issue is "mutually exclusive views". That is based on human understanding of those views (on what is truly excluded). But when it comes to truly exclusive views, I agree.

We have to remember that God has revealed Himself to us. He has revealed that He is in control, and even Satan dies no act without His allowing it to be. At the same time Scripture reveals that we have free will.

Man's decisions belong to man, but what occurs belongs to God.

The question is whether God has revealed Himself to man for man to analyze Him or for man to obey Him. If the former then God is revealing Himself so that we can understand the mind of God. If we later then it is so that we will obey His will.

In other cultures, ancient Hebrew, first century Judaism, ANE...to name a few....divine predestination and free will is not considered mutual exclusive. Even in ancient Greek philosophy Fate and free will is not exclusive (Oedipus is a good example).

But in Western philosophy it is either-or. Either God has predestined everything or man has free will.

Again, an appeal to the fiction we should accept God holds views we see as mutually exclusive. This is simply an argument from silence.

In summary, there is a rational view that holds that God is "all knowing" in that God knows whatsoever He chooses to know, while accepting God's revelation that He can remember no more our forgiven sins. There is absolute no reason to discard the rational view for an irrational assertion.

 

[JonC]

Again, an appeal to the fiction we should accept God holds views we see as mutually exclusive. This is simply an argument from silence.

In summary, there is a rational view that holds that God is "all knowing" in that God knows whatsoever He chooses to know, while accepting God's revelation that He can remember no more our forgiven sins. There is absolute no reason to discard the rational view for an irrational assertion.

Again....it depends on whether the views are actually mutually exclusive or if you just think they are.We cannot demand others submit to our understanding. We are not the arbitrator of truth.

When you talk about God offering Jesus, and Jesus laying down His own life, and Jesus dying under the powers of Satan....that is non-negotiable because that is God's Word. When we work through that we have to be careful not to form a solution that denies Scripture.

What "mutually exclusive views" are we talking about?

 

[Van]

Unless God offered Jesus as a sacrifice and it was His predetermined plan that Jesus lay down His life and willingly die as a victim of Satan.

The issue is that there are plenty of passages describing Satan as the author of Christ's death (those whose father is Satan killed Jesus, His death was a sin, His death was unjust, His death was the act of evil, of evil doers, of wicked men . . .). BUT there are no passages describing God as killing Jesus. It is literally a choice between the Bible and philosophy.

Please cite specific verses that proclaim the above fictions.
Here is what scripture actually teaches:

1) Jesus death was a victory over Satan. Hebrews 2:14
2) Yes, the people who carried out God's plan were sinners under the influence of Satan. Not in dispute.
3) Acts 2:23 says Jesus was put to death according to God's predetermined plan.​