-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
ĕlōhı̂m: Plural Persons, or Majesty?
- Thread starter SavedByGrace
- Start date
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Creation by God the Father alone is not what the Bible actually teaches
In Hebrews 1:10-12 we have the Father addressing Jesus Christ as THE ACTUAL CREATOR, and applies Psalm 102.24-27 to Jesus Christ
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
They are The Eternal Triune Godhead.
Good.
Ah, yeah...
Sure nuff.
Yep.
IT DOESN'T DOESN'T? KEEP LOOKIN'. (Sorry caps)
IT DOESN'T DOESN'T? KEEP LOOKIN'. (Sorry caps)
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Did anyone say that?
Thankyouverymuch.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
37818
Well-Known Member
Keep looking for not being stated a certain way? What difference does it make if it is not so stated in Scripture?
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
What happened to John 1:1,2? "and the Word was God.
"The same was in the beginning with God"?
What does this passage just say about, "{Him not them}"?
You've got it alright, here. What's wrong with that?
Look at the unspoken issues brought up by this thread title:
"Is Creation By or Through Jesus Christ?"
Is this supposed to be making an issue, like you are,
A.) that Creation is required to be exclusively
"By" Jesus Christ ALONE AND DIVORCED FROM THE GODHEAD?
OR
B.) Creation is "Through Jesus Christ",
as if Jesus is some sort of a subordinate instrument??
And that's it?
The only choices, huh?
...
(Note: You're going to be Allowed the Allowance to make
an Allowance, on down below, which is not your thing...
So, Get ready. Get ready. Get ready.)
(Wording borrowed and adapted from Gill.)
"In order to excite thankfulness in himself and them,
Paul takes notice of various blessings of Grace;
of the Father's Grace in giving a suitableness for Eternal Glory
and happiness, by Delivering these Colossians from the Power of Darkness,
and Translating them into the Kingdom of His Son,
Colossians 1:12,
"and of the Son's Grace in Obtaining Redemption by His blood,
and procuring the Remission of sins,
Colossians 1:14,
"this leads the Apostle to enlarge upon the excellencies
of the Author of these blessings, Jesus Christ,
as the Author and Finisher of our Faith, in His Divine Person,
as the Image of God, and the First Cause of all Created beings,
Colossians 1:15,
"Who is the image of the invisible God,
the firstborn of every creature",
"which Paul proves by an enumeration of them, as Created by Him,
and for His sake, by His Pre-Existence to them,
and their dependence on Him,
in Colossians 1:16;
"For by Him were all things created,
that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible,
whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers:
all things were Created by Him, and for Him",
"This is a reason proving Christ to be before all creatures,
to be the common Parent of them, and to have the government over them,
"since He is the Creator of them...all things that are in Heaven
are said to be Created here...along with the Earth, wherefore these words
must be understood, not metaphorically, but literally;
"in which sense all things are Created by Christ,
not by Him as an instrument, but as the Efficient Cause;
"for the preposition "by"
does not always signify the former
(by Him as an instrument)
but sometimes the latter
(as the Efficient Cause of Creation);
1 Corinthians 1:9;
"God is faithful, by (δι’) Whom (as the Efficient Cause)
ye were called unto the fellowship of His Son Jesus Christ our Lord."
(Note: HERE is your Allowance opportunity in red
to make an Allowance and Allow God to be God, as God says He is,
and not what we think HE MIGHT BE...)
"nor to the exclusion of the Father and Spirit, Who, with the Son,
were Jointly concerned with the Creating of all things out of nothing:
THIS IS WHERE I SAID:
AND THE HOLY SPIRIT:
"and these "all things" can only refer to the things that are made:
"not eternal things which can never be said to be Created;
this is a contradiction in terms;
"the Father is not created by Him,
"nor He Himself as the Son of God,
"nor the Spirit;
"but everything that is made is Created by Him:
hence it follows, that He Himself is no creature,
otherwise He must Create Himself, which also is a contradiction,
"since every creature is made by Him;
and consequently, He must be God,
"Because He that made and built all things is God."
"and in His Office Capacity, as Mediator; Colossians 1:17;
"And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist."
"Jesus Christ is before everything in existence, as He must needs be,
since they are all made by Him;
"He was not only before John the Baptist, His forerunner,
"before Abraham who saw His day and was glad,
"before the first man was made,
"but before the Angels were in being,
"or the Heavens and the Earth,
"or any creature was formed;
"and therefore must be God, Who is from Everlasting to Everlasting:"
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
What are your requirements for what has to be stated in what way?
These couple of the following criteria?
Here are some Bible occurrences for Names of The Holy Spirit.
Dunno, if that's what you mean you'd have to try to find,
or if they'll suit ya, for what you wanted.
For example:
"Jehovah, the Lord God of Israel", "Rock", "Adonai",
"The Lord the Spirit", "God" in Acts 5:3,4 (below), "The Spirit of God",
"the same Spirit", "the same Lord", "the same God", etc.
"Names which are given to The Holy Spirit of God;
as particularly the Name Jehovah, peculiar to the Most High."
from: Chap. 31. The Distinct Personality,
and Deity of the Holy Spirit,
The Body of Divinity by John Gill.
"it was Jehovah, the Lord God of Israel,
that spoke by the mouth of all the Holy Prophets
from the beginning of the world;
"and it is certain that they spoke
as they were moved by the Holy Spirit, (Luke 1:68, 70; 2 Peter 1:21)
"it was Jehovah, the Rock and God of Israel,
that spoke by David;
"and it is clear that it was the Holy Spirit that spoke by him;
because Peter says,
"This scripture must needs be fulfilled,
which the Holy Spirit, by the mouth of David,
spoke before concerning Judas", (2 Samuel 23:2, 3; Acts 1:16)
"it was Jehovah, the Lord God, whom the Israelites tempted,
proved, and provoked in the wilderness;
and this the Holy Spirit speaks of as done to Himself;
"Wherefore, as the Holy Spirit says,
Today if you will hear His Voice,
harden not your hearts, as in the provocation,
in the day of temptation in the wilderness,
when your fathers tempted Me, proved Me",
"tempted Me, proved Me" = the Holy Spirit,
(Psalm 95:6, 7; Hebrews 3:7-9; see Isaiah 63:10)
and;
"It was Jehovah that said to Isaiah,
"Go and tell this people, hear you indeed", etc.
and according to the Apostle Paul, the same was the Holy Spirit;
"for to the Jews he says,
"Well spoke the Holy Spirit by Isaiah the prophet,
saying, Go unto this people, and say,
hearing you shall hear", etc. (Isaiah 6:8, 9; Acts 28:25, 26).
"The Greek word, used in the New Testament,
answers to Jehovah and Adonai in the Old;
"and this is said of the Holy Spirit, He is that Spirit which is the Lord,
and is called the Lord the Spirit
2 Corinthians 3:17,18;
"Now the Lord is that Spirit:
and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
"But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass
the Glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image
from Glory to Glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord."
see also 2 Thessalonians 3:5;
"And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God,
and into the patient waiting for Christ."
"Moreover the Holy Spirit is very plainly called God in Scripture:
when Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit,
He is said to lie not unto men but unto God;
"wherefore if lying to the Holy Spirit is lying to God,
it follows that the Holy Spirit must be God. Acts 5:3,4;
"But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart
to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 "Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold,
was it not in thine own power?
why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart?
thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God."
"The saints of God are called the Temple of God,
and the reason proving it is, because the Spirit of God dwells in them,
and because their bodies are the Temples of the Holy Spirit,
they are exhorted to Glorify God in their bodies:
"Now if the Holy Spirit is not called God,
or meant by God in these passages,
there is no force of reasoning in them;
1 Corinthians 3:16, 6:19, 20;
3:16; "Know ye not that ye are the Temple of God,
and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?"
16; "What? know ye not
that he which is joined to a harlot is one body?
for two, saith he, shall be one flesh."
17; "But he that is joined unto the Lord is one Spirit."
"Moreover the Apostle gives to the Holy Spirit
the Divine Names of Spirit, Lord, and God,
when he is speaking of the diversities of His Gifts,
Administrations, and Operations;
for of Him only is He speaking by Whom all these are;
1 Corinthians 12:4-6;
"Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5; "And there are differences of administrations,
but the same Lord.
6; "And there are diversities of operations,
but it is the same God which worketh all in all."
...
What you will permit God to tell you, I dunno, or not, etc.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
What do you have to say about the Son?
What might your idea of The TRINITY be?
Looks like SavedByGrace goes off in about eight
or nine different directions
with views on this and that and the other,
concerning Who and what God is, again, at this post:
Is Creation By or Through Jesus Christ?
Update: Come to find out the goofy stuff was just examples
and he gets to all straight in the end;
...
DO ANY OF THESE CLEAR THE NET?
What do you need for Jesus to be Called?
"Jesus Christ has the same Glorious Names the Most High God has;
as Ejeh, I AM that I AM, (Exodus 3:14)
"to which our Lord refers,
and takes to Himself, (John 8:58),
"and Jehovah, which is incommunicable to a creature,
and peculiar to the Most High, (Psalm 83:18),
"If it can be proved that the Name Jehovah is given to Jesus Christ,
it will prove Him to be the Most High over all the earth.
"Now we are told that God spoke to Moses,
and said, "I am the Lord", or Jehovah;
by which Name He was not known to Abraham, Isaac,
and Jacob; that is, not by that only,
"or that was not so fully made known to them,
as it had been to Moses, and the Israelites by Him,
(Exodus 6:2, 3, 3:14),
"Which Person that appeared to Moses, and said those words,
is called the Angel of the Lord, (Exodus 3:2),
not a created angel, (Exodus 3:6) but an Uncreated One;
"and must be understood, not of God the Father,
Who is never called an angel; but of the Son of God,
the Angel of His Presence,
Who brought the children of Israel out of Egypt,
"went before them, and led them through the Red Sea,
and wilderness, to the land of Canaan,
(Ex. 3:8, 13:21, 14:19, 23:20; Isaiah 63:9),
"He, Whom the Israelites tempted in the wilderness,
is expressly called Jehovah, (Ex. 17:7),
and nothing is more evident than that this Person was Christ,
(1 Corinthians 10:9),
"He Whom Isaiah saw on a throne,
making a very magnificent appearance,
is not only called Adonai, (Isaiah 6:1),
"but by the seraphim, Jehovah, (Isaiah 6:3),
"and so by Isaiah, (Isaiah 6:5),
who was bid to say to the Jews, (Isaiah 6:8, 9);
"Hear you indeed", etc. which words Jesus Christ applies to Himself;
and observes that, "those things Isaiah said,
when he saw His Glory and spoke of Him" (John 12:39, 40, 41).
There is a Prophecy in (Isaiah 40:3).
"The voice of him that cries in the wilderness,
Prepare you the way of the Lord", or of Jehovah,
"make straight in the desert, and High Way for our God",
"which, by the evangelist Matthew, is applied unto,
and interpreted by John the Baptist, (Matthew 3:1-3),
"wherefore, the Jehovah, Whose way he was to prepare,
and our God, whose paths he was to make straight,
could be no other than Jesus Christ.
Moreover, the Messiah, or Jesus Christ,
is expressly called, the Lord, or Jehovah, our Righteousness,
in (Jeremiah 23:6);
"it being His Work, as Mediator,
to bring in Everlasting Righteousness;
and is the end of the law for it,
and is made Righteousness to everyone that believes.
"Once more, Jehovah promises to pour forth the Spirit of Grace
and Supplication on some persons described in (Zechariah 12:10)
"and then adds,
"They shall look upon Me", Jehovah,
"Whom they have pierced"; which was Fulfilled in Jesus Christ,
"when one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, (John 19:34, 37)
the same words are referred to and applied to Jesus Christ (Revelation 1:7).
It may be observed also, that in some places of scripture,
Jesus Christ is absolutely called God; as in Psalm 45:6,
"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever";
"where Jesus is distinguished from God His Father, (Psalm 45:7),
"and these words are expressly applied to Jesus as the Son of God
in (Hebrews 1:8) "But unto the Son he says, Your throne, O God", etc.
"yes, Christ calls Himself God; as He well might,
since He is in the form of God,
and therefore thought it no robbery to be Equal to God; saying,
"Look unto Me, and be you saved, all the ends of the earth;
for I am God, and there is none else; I have sworn by Myself", etc.
(Isaiah 45:22, 23),
"which last words, in connection with the other, are,
by the Apostle Paul, applied to Jesus Christ (Romans 14:10-12).
"The evangelist John, says of the Word, or Son of God,
Who was made flesh, and dwelt among men,
and so cannot be understood by any but Jesus Christ,
that "the Word was God", (John 1:1, 14).
"And the same inspired writer observes,
"Hereby perceive we the love of God,
because He laid down His Life for us", (1 John 3:16),
"from whence it follows, that He who laid down His Life for men,
which can only be said of Christ,
and wherein His love to them appeared, must be God.
"And Christ is not only called God absolutely,
but with some additional epithets, with possessive pronouns,
as, "our God", the Jews were waiting for,
and John was the forerunner of, (Isaiah 25:9, 40:3),
"your God", Who should come when Miracles
would be wrought as proofs of it, (Isaiah 35:4,5),
"their God", (Luke 1:16),
"my Lord, and my God", by Thomas (John 20:28).
"Jesus Christ is said to be Immanuel, God with us,
God in our nature, that is, God manifest in the flesh,
(Matthew 1:22; 1 Timothy 3:16).
"Some additional characters are given of Christ,
when He is called God;
which shows Him to be Truly and Properly God;
"as, "the Mighty God", in (Isaiah 9:6)
which is manifestly a Prophecy of Him;
"and Who elsewhere is called the Most Mighty, the Almighty,
(Psalm 45:3; Revelation 1:8),
"and "over all God blessed forever", (Romans 9:5)
over all creatures, angels and men, who are made by Him;
"and Jesus Christ is blessed forever in Himself.
"He is called "the Great God", Whose Glorious Appearing,
and not the Father's, saints are directed to look for;
"besides, this Great God, is explained of Jesus Christ our Savior
in the next clause, Titus 2:13:
"compare with this Revelation 19:17
where He Who is called,
"the Great God, is the Mighty Warrior,
Whose Name is the Word of God, and King of kings, and Lord of lords,"
(Revelation 19:11, 13, 16).
Jesus Christ is also said to be the "living God", (Hebrews 3:12),
because only He is spoken of in the context;
and this is only said of the Most High God;
"Which distinguishes Him from all other deities, (Jeremiah 10:10),
"and, to add no more, Jesus is called, "the true God",
in opposition to all false and fictitious deities, (1 John 5:20),
because what is there said, is said expressly of the Son of God."
adapted from: Chap. 30;
The Distinct Personality, and Deity of the Son.
The Body of Doctrinal Divinity by John Gill.
Last edited:
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
On and on folks, posts addressing me and not the topic.
You seem unable to grasp the idea of the majestic plural. Recall that God is sovereign, what He deems to be the case is the case. Thus if He says Jesus saves, then those in His Kingdom and under His rule say Jesus saves. Thus God can refer to Himself as "He (singular )is elohim (plural). Deuteronomy 4:35.
37818
Well-Known Member
He has always been both the Son and the LORD{Jehovah} God.
Now the issue of using the phraseology, God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit, it is also used by polytheistic Trithieists.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
There is nothing wrong with saying
God the Father
God the Son
God the Holy Spirit
As long as it is remembered that the Three Distinct Equal Persons are united in One Eternal Godhead or Divine Nature
1x1x1 which equals 1
37818
Well-Known Member
But not as three gods, which would be a denial of the one true God.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
I have clearly said that the Three Distinct Persons are One in the Eternal Godhead
How can this be 3 Gods?
37818
Well-Known Member
If the One Eternal Godhead is misinterperted to be made up of three gods. Such as God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit they are the One Eternal Godhead.
See also Do Christians Believe in Three Gods? (Tritheism)
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Simply put, the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are equally One God, and therefore YHWH
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Your O.P. and title just didn't allow for a strictly correct answer and the body mostly pushed against "Through", which wasn't making a case for the ultimate conclusion, as a third alternative.
And the correct answer, as a third alternative that finally appears practically hidden in the last statements, includes ,"the Holy Spirit", without having had any support previously, but all is well that ends well.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Don Stewart says,
"Tritheism accepts the threeness of God but ignores the unity."
So, there we have "unity", and he says, the Trinity has "distinct persons or centers of consciousness. These three co-operate with each other in one mind and purpose. Therefore in the truest sense they are one."
That "sense" we see those characteristics in is in their Nature.
The Nature of the Triune Godhead is They are ONE ESSENCE.
The First Person of the One Divine Essence in the Triune Godhead
is expressed to us by the Distinct Eternal Personality of God the Father.
The Second Person of the One Divine Essence in the Triune Godhead
is expressed to us by the Distinct Eternal Personality of God the Son.
The Third Person of the One Divine Essence in the Triune Godhead
is expressed to us by the Distinct Eternal Personality of God the Holy Spirit.
The various distinctions among and between
The One Eternal Divine Essence of the Triune Godhead
can be separated by the following categories,
to study in their Glorious Blessedness:
26. Of the Unity of God.
27. Of a Plurality on the Godhead; or,
A Trinity of Persons in the Unity of the Divine Essence.
28. Of the Personal Relations; or, Relative Properties
Which Distinguish the Three Divine Persons in the Deity.
29. Of the Distinct Personality, and Deity of the Father.
30. Of the Distinct Personality, and Deity of the Son.
31. Of the Distinct Personality, and Deity of the Holy Spirit.
The .PDF of John Gill's Body of Doctrinal Divinity is here:
https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/gill/A_Body_of_Doctrinal_Divinity_-_John_Gill.pdf
or here: Work info: Body of Practical Divinity
- Christian Classics Ethereal Library
Clickable links to view those chapters are here:
The Body of Doctrinal Divinity.
(The whole seven book volume, plus
The Body of Practical Divinity four book volume).
BOOK I. (Containing the above chapters 26-31)
OF GOD, HIS WORD, NAMES, NATURE, PERFECTIONS, AND PERSONS.
Last edited: