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Featured Historical usage of Words reveals the Contextual Meaning

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, May 11, 2024.

  1. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Your view, as I understand it, is the common understanding of the adoption.

    I am persuaded, it is only the post resurrection of the saints, per Romans 8:23 and 1 John 3:2.
     
  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yes 1 John 3:1-2 are on point, thanks!
     
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  3. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    For starters, the Greek preposition "διά", originally in its root, means, "two, between", and "by the help or working of", "with one another", etc

    Secondly, there are two "cases" where this preposition is used, either with the genitive, or the accusative.

    Thirdly, there are instances where it is used in the genitive, where the "normal" use is "instrument", but the context in the Bible shows, that it is actually "origin".

    Fourthly, there are also cases in the Bible, where this preposition is used in "cooperation", as in "working together"

    you have oversimplified the preposition in the OP for the purpose of trying to make your points!
     
  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    First you agree, dia is used to show instrumentality, but say I oversimplified to make my point. I simply provided the information germane to my point, and skipped the other non-relevant stuff.

    Bottom line, you seem to agree we were saved through faith, meaning our faith was utilized to accomplish our election for salvation, as per 2 Thessalonians 2:13. If so, I agree.
     
  5. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    your OP has failed on the most important factor of our "faith", which the Bible clearly states "comes from the hearing of the Word of God" (Romans 10:17), which is the product of our hearing of the Gospel Message of Repentance and Faith, as is also clear from Peter's sermon in Acts chapter 2

    Sinners are saved BY the Preaching of the True Gospel, which is worked on their hearts by the Holy Spirit in conviction, and their obeying His Work in them. Saving Faith does not "come from within us".

    The verse that you quote from the KJV, is not what the Apostle Paul wrote, and has been changed

    As Versions like the ESV, "But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth", are indeed the correct

    Paul is referring to the FIRST CONVERTS, as he says in 1 Cor. 15:20, 23; 16:15; Rom. 8:23; 16:5, etc.
     
  6. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Your post demonstrates failure to accept scripture as written.

    Faith does not "come" from within us, the gospel message must be revealed to us by God's gracious revelation.

    The claim our heart must be supernaturally altered to put our faith in Christ is complete fiction, without a shred of support in scripture.

    Whether the actual verse reads "as first fruits" or "from the beginning" is irrelevant, the meaning of the verse is unchanged.

    However, your choice (ESV) changed the sentence structure, a noun (salvation) into a verb (saved) changes the message.
    And what did this agenda driven alteration accomplish. In Paul's sentence structure, "through" describes the instrumentality used in the God's choice for salvation (or choice as first fruits). In the corrupted translation, "through" describes the instrumentality used in being saved.

    The the Greek word (rendered first fruits) usually refers to the initial blessing brought by God, such as they are bestowed from the beginning. For example, Christ, not his initial converts, is said to be the "first fruits."
     
  7. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Here is what the deniers of "through faith" claim:

    You do not enter a room "through" the door, but rather you materialize within a room without a door, and then a door is installed (instilled) in the room. I kid you not. :)
     
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  8. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Van, PLEASE stop posting NONSENSE about Greek grammar, as it is clear that you do NOT understand what you say!!!
     
  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    LOL, Calvinists claim their opponents do not understand as often as the godless left plays the race card.

    Did his post deny the ESV version of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 changed a noun into a verb? Nope, he just bellowed a smoke screen.
     
  10. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    can you show the "error" of the ESV in 2 Thessalonians 2:13?
     
  11. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    On and on with subject change questions implying he does not know "salvation" is a noun found in the Greek text of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 and saved is a verb not found in that text. I kid you not!!

    All this to hide the truth 2 Thessalonians 2:13 teaches conditional election for salvation!
     
  12. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    can you show WHERE is the grammatical "error" in the ESV reading???
     
  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Changing a noun into a verb! That is a grammar error.
     
  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Right = He saved me.
    Wrong = He salvation me.

    Or

    Right He chose me for salvation
    Wrong He chose me for saved

    Or

    Right He chose me for salvation
    Wrong He chose me for saved
     
  15. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    The Greek NOUN, σωτηρία, is translated as SAVED in the KJV, in Luke 1:71; Romans 10:1

    The root meaning is "deliverance, preservation", and is also used for "means of safety, security" etc.

    The VERB σῴζω, is also used in the SAME SENSE!
     
  16. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    There are "rules" in Greek grammar, as there are in all languages in the world. However, these are also "exceptions" to these "rules".

    One good example is found in John 20:28, where Thomas says to Jesus Christ, "Ὁ κύριός μου καὶ ὁ θεός μου" (my Lord and my God). The case in the Greek is nominative, which some assume as something that Thomas was "surprised" by, and his language is an "astonishment". However, we read in the immediate verse, "εἶπεν αὐτῷ" (said to Him), that is to Jesus Christ. Here we now have what is known as in Greek grammar, where the nominative is taken as "vocative", as in direct address. This is not uncommon in Koine Greek

    We have the exact same use in Hebrews 1:8, "Ὁ θρόνος σου, ὁ θεός" (Your Throne O God), where the nominative form, is taken as vocative. This is also clear from the words, "πρὸς δὲ τὸν υἱόν", "but to the Son", which is also direct address by the Father.

    The Hebrew scholar, Aquila, who published a Greek Version of the Old Testament, in the middle of the 2nd century A.D., translates the Hebrew, by the Greek, “ο θρονος σου θεε”, in Psalm 45:6, which is undoubtedly the vocative, “Your throne, O God”. (Fredrick Field, Origen Hexapla, vol. II, pp. 162-163). Which shows that the Hebrew is clearly understood as having the meaning of the vocative.
     
  17. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    In post #35, the argument is if another translation mistranslates the same word, then two wrongs make a right, and therefore ESV mistranslation of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is just dandy. I kid you not.

    In post #36, the use of the nominative instead of the vocative is offered to justify the translators changing nouns to verbs to hide conditional election for salvation. As someone is fond of posting, that does not follow.
     
  18. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Gosh! Van, WHEN will you ever learn that your "reasoning" on Greek grammar is ZERO!
     
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  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yet another "taint so" post to hide truth, bible study requires meditating on the intended meaning given the grammar and historical word meaning, contextually considered. (Acts 17:17 and 18:4) See also:
    How can I meditate on God’s Word? | GotQuestions.org
     
  20. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    :eek::rolleyes:
     
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