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God made them the vessels of wrath !

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Brightfame52, Jul 20, 2024.

  1. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Rom 9:20-22

    20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

    21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

    22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

    I know this is a subject that is most distasteful to proud human flesh, but the scripture does teach that God made some people to be vessels of wrath, and He fits them for destruction, which destruction will be everlasting !

    These same vessels of wrath are mentioned in Proverbs, Prov 16:4

    4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for[denoting purpose] the day of evil.


    These are people outside of Gods election of grace Rom 11:5,7

    5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

    Those not of the election of grace, are termed the rest which are blinded


    7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.


    If they're excluded from being of the election of grace, they are excluded from being chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4
     
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  2. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    The vessels of wrath that are fitted for destruction are all whom their names weren't written in the lambs book of life before the foundation of the world. Rev 13:8

    8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    Rev 17:8

    8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
     
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  3. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    The vessels of wrath that are fitted for destruction are all whom are not redeemed with /or by the blood of Christ 1 Pet 1:18-19

    18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

    19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
     
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  4. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    The vessels of wrath that are fitted for destruction are all whom are not given life or regenerated by the Spirit, but shall remain in their natural spiritual alienation from the life of God Eph 4:18

    Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

    They are the ones who will separate themselves having not the Spirit Jude 1:19
     
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  5. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    The vessels of wrath that are fitted for destruction are all for Gods Glory and to exercise His Power/Right to take of the same lump of dirt and make one vessel to which He will make manifest the riches of His Grace and Mercy, and the other vessel He makes to make manifest His justice and wrath. Rom 9:20-23

    20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

    21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

    22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

    23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

    That word power in Vs 21 is the word exousia and means:

    power of choice, liberty of doing as one pleases

    One wrote of his God Ps 115:3

    But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
     
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  6. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    Just a muse…

    The phrase ‘objects/vessels of wrath’ in Romans, reminds me of passages drawn from Jeremiah 19 (and Isaiah 30:14 ).

    Might we extend the analogy of the potter and make some additional assumptions?

    I wonder if those vessels that the Potter fashioned might have been intended for good, but ‘did not contain the image’ that the Maker intended, therefore they were discarded.

    It was not by the Makers intention, neither was it by the intention of the vessel, but by the design of the process… the intention of the purpose of creation.

    …just wondering…

    Rob
     
  7. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    I believe God made the vessels of wrath on purpose, to fit them for destruction.
     
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  8. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    God gives the vessels of wrath existence to show His just wrath against their sin, according to His strict justice without which this Glory of His Righteousness would not have been displayed. This by the way should melt the hearts of the vessels of mercy into deep gratitude and humility since if God so pleased, they to could have been vessels of wrath !
     
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  9. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    God made them the vessels of wrath ! so likewise He made them the children of disobedience !Eph 2:2

    2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
    God has resolved for them, the vessels of wrath, that their lives shall be characterized like this: Rom 2:8

    8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

    God works in them sovereignly so that they dont obey the Gospel Rom 10:16

    But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

    2 Thess 1:8

    In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

    Its like how God sovereignly determined to harden pharoah heart unto disobedience Ex 4:21

    And the Lord said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

    Its no accident that men wont obey the Gospel, for they're doing Gods sovereign will for their lives.
     
  10. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    The vessels of wrath are the wicked God created for Himself Prov 16:4

    4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

    They are also one and the same with the wicked God turns into hell Ps 9:17

    The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

    This God determined to do antecedently.
     
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  11. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    The vessels of wrath, whom God made, and fits them for destruction, yeah even eternal destruction, where made simply because it was Gods good pleasure Ep 1:5,9,11

    Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the [ good pleasure of his will,

    Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

    11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

    Now I know these verses aren't specifically talking about reprobation of the wicked, but they do describe the sovereign Being of God"him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will" To include reprobation of the vessels of wrath whom He created. 3
     
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  12. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Now God is the absolute First cause as to why some are elect and others are rejected. Now regarding the reprobate, even though the just ground for their damnation and destruction is their sins, yet its not their sins that are the antecedent cause, its the sovereign will of God. See nothing in time could have persuaded God to action, who is Eternal and outside of time. Hes influenced[if we can say that] by His Own absolute dominion over all things, yeah, even His creatures He created. He made all things for Himself to dispose of them as He so wills See Rom 9:21-22 ; Prov 16:4
     
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  13. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    God has the Sovereign Right and exercised His Sovereign Right , as a Potter over His clay, to make of the same lump, sinful fallen humanity if we may, vessels of wrath preordained to be damned for their sins, eternal destruction.

    Rom 9:20-22

    20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

    21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

    22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

    The word destruction apōleia here does denote:

    the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell

    See 2 Thess 1:9

    Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
     
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  14. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    If my understanding of the scripture is correct, the majority of the world, mankind are vessels of wrath being fitted [by God] for destruction ! Rom 9:21-22

    21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

    22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:


    Matt 7:13

    13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: f
     
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  15. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ?

    The answer to the question is an absolutely yes ! Many scriptures indicate that, if we receive them honestly. Heres one that teaches it by antithesis 1 Thess 5:9

    9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

    This statement presupposes that God has appointed some to wrath, that word appointed tithémi also means destined, to decree one to be subject to wrath,

    All whom God did not choose in Christ and to obtain Salvation by Him, He destined, appointed, decreed them to wrath. This is a work of God, and as it is written Acts 15:18

    18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
     
  16. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    No place does God describe hell and wrath for mankind as being "predestined." Big difference.
     
  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I think that this passage has is an often abused. It fits with the necessity of predestination with divine omniscience.

    Edwards argument that both sides of the issue believe that everything is predestined because they believe that God is omniscient. The difference is one side believes all is predestined to occur as God knows these things will occur while the other side believes that everything is predestined to occur as God decreed them to occur.

    Applied to God creating vessels of wrath we get one side that believes all things work out for the good (God, knowing His creation - both good and bad - still created) while the other side believes God decreed men to be evil.

    Interesting topic.
     
  18. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Relative to: 18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world., from post 15.

    What were the pre mentioned works of God in Acts 15?

    After the resurrection of and ascension of Jesus, God choose some to be given the Holy Spirt from the Jews. IMHO that began of the day of first-fruit, Pentecost. Feast of first-fruit of the Spirit.
    God also showed Peter that he God was going to take out of the nations [Gentiles] and give them the Spirit also. Acts 15:7,8

    God was taking these, out of the Jews [Judah, Levi & Benjamin] and out of the nations [Gentiles] and giving them the first-fruit of the Spirit as a people for his name [for his names sake]. Acts 15:14

    Verse 15 states the prophets wrote that this would take place. For example see; Ezek 36: 16 - 32 also Jer 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

    Verse begins; After this, After the taking out of the nations a people for his name's sake the tabernacle of David which has been fallen down will be rebuilt on the earth with Jesus and those taken for his name sake, and have been raised out of the dead and of changed ruling, See Rev 20, 1 Thes 4, 1 Cor 15, Phil 3:20,21, 2 Tim 4:1

    Now what else is included in these works of God ?

    That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Acts 15:17

    What about the rest of the dead from Gen 4 to ------------------ Who have been deceived by Satan the Devil.
     
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