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God made them the vessels of wrath !

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
You don't understand the Bible in general nor the gospel of Christ in particular. I understand. I was once as you are.
No. I once understood, taught, and preached as you now believe. What changed? God led me to study His Word rather than the writings of men.

If you decide to actually read the Bible then you will undoubtedly run across God stating in His Word through Peter that God will judge all men according to their works. And you will see this directed to Christians who can call on God as "Abba".

And if you learn enough to venture into Paul's words you will find that many will escape with their lives but only as one who escapes a fire.

And if you decide to read Jesus' words you will discover that we are to lay up treasures in Heaven rather than on earth.


The issue here is vessels of wrath. We have to realize that even demons believe. Our works show us where our treasure really is. Many will say "Lord, Lord" only to hear "I never knew you."
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
You don't understand the Bible in general nor the gospel of Christ in particular. I understand. I was once as you are.
Those who walk in the flesh will die. Those who walk in the Spirit will live.

The crux here is not elect vs reprobate but if God really makes a difference.

We, who legitimately are Christians, are reborn. God causes us to be obedient.

You suggest a Christian can support evil, live in sin, and not be disciplined by God.

Scripture indicates that these "professing Christians" are Illegitimate sons - not saved at all.
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Another scripture that teaches some men were ordained, predestinated to condemnation is Jude 1:4

4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Ordained by who ? By the Lord God ! That word ordained means to:

designate, appoint, assign, determine

So God designated them to this condemnation before they were even born. So they were born into the world to suffer this condemnation by the Purpose of God !
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Yes. I know the passage very well (the whole passage, not just what you take out here).



"So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires."

This part of the passage very strongly points to sin being the cause of the "vessels of wrath" and those remaining as such due to a "hardening".
So then you should see two seperate groups of people identified, the vessels of mercy and then the vessels of wrath, God is the maker of them both.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Another scripture that teaches some men were ordained, predestinated to condemnation is Jude 1:4

4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Ordained by who ? By the Lord God ! That word ordained means to:

designate, appoint, assign, determine

So God designated them to this condemnation before they were even born. So they were born into the world to suffer this condemnation by the Purpose of God !
They were.

The problem is when people divorce God's attributes from God and then decide to attribute one (or none) to Him.


I have repeatedly said that God created the saved to be saved and the lost to be lost.

What you are doing (without realizing) is making God less than God to support your position. We cannot say God based this on one attribute while denying His other attributes. So it is impossible to say that sin is not the reason.

The focus passage here speaks of the vessels of wrath being so because God "hardened" them. This means all of the vessels were facing the same fate, the salvation was needed, and avaliable to all....but God "hardened" some - creating vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath.
 
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JonC

Moderator
Moderator
So then you should see two seperate groups of people identified, the vessels of mercy and then the vessels of wrath, God is the maker of them both.
Yes. BUT one was "hardened" and the other "saved from the wrath to come" which indicates God formed from the same "clay".

Do you remember how God "hardened" the heart of Pharoah so that he wouldn't consent?

We are saved. By your posts it would appear we did not need saving (we were never objects destined to perish....we did not need to "escape the wrath to come".

The issue is not whether there are two people groups but whether the opportunity is there for all men (it is) and whether God became less than God in creation (He didnt).
 

KenH

Well-Known Member
If you decide to actually read the Bible

Such a silly statement. I have read the Bible all the way through. A rather a silly statement for you to make considering how much of the Scriptures I have quoted on the board over time.

And if you learn enough to venture into Paul's words

I have read Paul's words. A rather silly statement for you to make considering how much I have quoted Paul's words(which are really not his but God's) on this board over time.

And if you decide to read Jesus' words

I have read Jesus's words. A rather silly statement for you to make considering how much I have quoted Jesus's words on this board over time.

Many will say "Lord, Lord" only to hear "I never knew you."

Yes, those who have put their trust in their works and their own supposed righteousness(which is no righteousness at all), and not in the Lord our Righteousness.

' "Now if the law gets hold of your conscience, and God’s Spirit should at the same time reveal this righteousness, it will answer all law claims that come against you. Suppose we look at it for a moment or two. The law saith, “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.” Well, now, I tell you what—if you cannot bring a righteousness to God adequate to this, your soul is ready to sink into black despair. And where will you find it? We have some who attempt to moderate it; and they say, if we are sincere in our desires, God will accept of our sincerity, and so Christ is put in the back ground in their mode of obedience. But this will not do. We must have a righteousness, not only in which you and I cannot find a flaw, but in which God cannot find a flaw. And if we ourselves see nothing but sin in our own, and find fault with the very best that we can do and say all our righteousnesses are but filthy rags, how heart-breaking must we feel to present such a one before infinite purity and perfection We must have a righteousness in which Jehovah himself cannot find a flaw, a righteousness which Jehovah cannot mend, a righteousness which neither sin nor Satan can mar; and unless we have on a righteousness of this nature, we can never enter into the blessedness of the world to come.

Where, then, are we to find it? Eternal praises to the matchless mercy of a covenant God, we have it in the blessed Person, glorious work, and spotless obedience of the Lord Jesus Christ! And, therefore, as it was essential for him to fulfill all righteousness for his people, he loved the Lord his God with all his heart, with all his mind, and with all his strength. He began at the beginning, and went through holily, righteously, and steadily every step of the law of God; and all in justice and righteousness. He fulfilled every iota of it, and gave it immortal glory and honour. The law could only require the perfect obedience of a perfect man, but he gave it the perfect obedience of the God-man, and stamped for ever a holy dignity and majesty on it, in order to manifest that this glorious righteousness is suited to every sinner’s case, to all their needs, and to honour and glorify all the perfections of God; and thus he has “for ever perfected them that were sanctified,”—all those who were set apart for himself. They are perfected for ever in his own blessed obedience and spotless righteousness; and this righteousness which God gives shall endure for ever. As for you who have a righteousness of your own, you never can feel your need of Christ’s righteousness; and if any one should insult you by speaking of it, you are wrapped up so snugly in your own pretty works that it would be an insult to your dignity to have his. The same as it would be an insult to the queen for you to make a basket of bulrushes, and present it to her as something very valuable; she would not receive it at your hands. So it is with you, when we speak of this blessed righteousness. You do not know your need of it, and it is an insult to your pride to mention it. But for the poor creature who feels himself to be a loathsome, vile, and ruined sinner, and is brought experimentally to feel what he is before a heart-searching God, and that every iota of the law is against him—for God to give this righteousness to him, to put it upon him and communicate the power of it to his soul, why it will raise and exalt him to such a blessed enjoyment of God’s righteousness that his tongue will sing aloud and speak forth praise to the honour and glory of his blessed name; and he will say, “My soul shall be joyful in my God; I will glory in the God of my salvation; for he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness; he hath adorned me with the garments of salvation.” '

- excerpt from a sermon preached by William Gadsby entitled, "The Tongue Speaking of Righteousness", preached on June 1, 1843, at Zoar Chapel, Great Alie Street, London.
 

KenH

Well-Known Member
You suggest a Christian can support evil, live in sin, and not be disciplined by God.

What part of Hebrews 12:5-13 that I referenced did you not understand?

Hebrews 12:5-13
And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children,
My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord,
Nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth,
And scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees; and make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
They were.

The problem is when people divorce God's attributes from God and then decide to attribute one (or none) to Him.


I have repeatedly said that God created the saved to be saved and the lost to be lost.

What you are doing (without realizing) is making God less than God to support your position. We cannot say God based this on one attribute while denying His other attributes. So it is impossible to say that sin is not the reason.

The focus passage here speaks of the vessels of wrath being so because God "hardened" them. This means all of the vessels were facing the same fate, the salvation was needed, and avaliable to all....but God "hardened" some - creating vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath.
You lost me again
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Yes. BUT one was "hardened" and the other "saved from the wrath to come" which indicates God formed from the same "clay".

Do you remember how God "hardened" the heart of Pharoah so that he wouldn't consent?

We are saved. By your posts it would appear we did not need saving (we were never objects destined to perish....we did not need to "escape the wrath to come".

The issue is not whether there are two people groups but whether the opportunity is there for all men (it is) and whether God became less than God in creation (He didnt).
You continue to lose me. There is no opportunity for the vessels of wrath to become the vessels of mercy.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
You continue to lose me. There is no opportunity for the vessels of wrath to become the vessels of mercy.
The vessels of wrath had to be "hardened" against something they would otherwise partake.

Thr vessels of mercy have to have been saved from something they would otherwise experience.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
What part of Hebrews 12:5-13 that I referenced did you not understand?

Hebrews 12:5-13
And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children,
My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord,
Nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth,
And scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees; and make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
No part.

I understood the passage clearly.
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
The condemnation they were ordained to in Jude 1:4 is described in Vs 13 Jude 1:13

13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Now some may object to the meaning of the word ordained in Jude 1:4, because the word also means:

a) I write previously (aforetime); I write above (already), (b) I depict or portray openly, (c) I designate beforehand.

Simply to write beforehand . Well, ok then, who was it written by ? Who wrote here Rev 13:8

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Obviously names were written in the book of life Rev 20:15, so who wrote them if not God ? Or if we say men wrote of the condemnation of Jude 1:4, it would have been written by inspiration of God, they were moved by the Holy Ghost, who is God, so that which was written was the Mind of God, the Purpose of God, which is Eternal !
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
The vessels of wrath had to be "hardened" against something they would otherwise partake.

Thr vessels of mercy have to have been saved from something they would otherwise experience.
You lost me. Its very simple, God created some people for the purpose of His wrath and destruction for their sins, and then God created some people for the purpose of His Mercy and Glory for their sins. and all for His Glory.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
You lost me. Its very simple, God created some people for the purpose of His wrath and destruction for their sins, and then God created some people for the purpose of His Mercy and Glory for their sins. and all for His Glory.
You lost me at "glory for their sins".

But I agree God creates men who will be saved from wrath and men who will experience that wrath.
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Gods reprobation of men, was deliberate and its active unto the vessels of wrath Rom 9:20-22

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?


21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?


22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Its deliberate, in that just as a potter deliberately makes a pot for the purpose He wants it to serve, So God contrived within Himself to make some men for the purpose of destruction.

God is active in that He actually fits them for destruction :

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

The word fitted katartizō means:

to fit out, equip, put in order, arrange, adjust

The word also in the greek is in the passive voice, meaning that they are being fitted for destruction, they are being acted upon, so God is the active primary force.

Some may argue that its in the middle voice, and that would also be correct, because since God has all Power, men cannot but comply with the purpose of God and fit themselves for destruction at the same time, so they are culpable ! 3
 
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