Revelation is not about the FUTURE

I heard a talk on the Book of Revelation that made what I thought might be a valid point. Brandon Robbins suggested that Revelation was written to the people living at that time, people going through horrific persecution, to whom each of the “apocalyptic literature” symbols would have been painfully obvious. The book starts out with seven real churches with seven very real conditions that Christians living under that culture and persecution would have been familiar with. The horsemen represent sufferings like war and famine and oppression that those people would have been only too familiar with. After acknowledging their suffering, the veil is pulled back and John/God reveal the spiritual war going on unseen behind the events of their hard lives (offering a glimpse and a hope that Satan would ultimately be defeated). Lastly comes the climax, a glimpse of the end with the ULTIMATE PROMISE that God will not merely triumph, but that those that are suffering NOW will one day be with Him and everything will be made RIGHT.

It is not intended to be a literal future prophecy for future generations to pick apart into complex debated timelines, it is a symbolic code for people IN a hard times to find hope. It was written to THEM about THEIR TIME, but it is timeless because Christians suffer and struggle in EVERY TIME. We have done an injustice to the church by making it about some FUTURE EVENTS when it is about getting through PRESENT STRUGGLES with Hope.

As just one small example, 144,000 is 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 … 12 is the number of God’s People (how many times is that used symbolically in scripture), so 12 x 12 is all of Gods people (Jews and Gentiles). 10 is symbolic of “many”, so 10x10x10 is many x many x many … basically “infinite”. So putting those together means that 144,000 is “ALL OF GOD’S PEOPLE, A MULTITUDE BEYOND COUNTING” … now what did John promise would happen to this multitude of God’s People … and remember that he made this promise to people that were LIVING (and dying) through the events of the Horsemen. Do you think that might have offered some encouragement to them in the middle of their hard times? Do you think it might still offer some encouragement to people living through their own personal hard times TODAY?

atpollard said:

Brandon Robbins suggested that Revelation was written to the people living at that time, people going through horrific persecution, to whom each of the “apocalyptic literature” symbols would have been painfully obvious.

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It was written to the believers of the time...to tell them of events that would shortly, from God's perspective, come to pass.
It was also written to "His servants";
All of God's people:

" The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:
2 who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw."

Since one day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day ( 2 Peter 3:8 ), He sees all in one glance.
In other words, the day of the Lord is "at hand" and has been, for 2,000 years;

That's 2 days in God's timing.

atpollard said:

Lastly comes the climax, a glimpse of the end with the ULTIMATE PROMISE that God will not merely triumph, but that those that are suffering NOW will one day be with Him and everything will be made RIGHT.

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My friend, whether He makes things right for believers who were suffering then or are suffering in places like North Korea, China, India or anywhere else today, God will triumph and He will make things right.

atpollard said:

It is not intended to be a literal future prophecy for future generations to pick apart into complex debated timelines, it is a symbolic code for people IN a hard times to find hope. It was written to THEM about THEIR TIME, but it is timeless because Christians suffer and struggle in EVERY TIME.

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I maintain that it is a literal, future prophetic book in which a very few of the things talked about have indeed come to pass.
My disagreement is with those who preach and teach that the things that are described in Revelation, are either for someone else or are "spiritualized" and not to be taken as they are written.

But I agree that there are analogies in Revelation, just as there are analogies within other paces in His word.
For example, Satan ( Lucifer ) is not, in reality, a great dragon... He is likened as one.

atpollard said:

We have done an injustice to the church by making it about some FUTURE EVENTS when it is about getting through PRESENT STRUGGLES with Hope.

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I'm sorry, but we'll have to agree to disagree.
To me, there are far too many things described in Revelation that, if believed literally, have never come to pass as of the writing of this reply.

I do agree that, even knowing that much of it is still yet in the future, we can and will get through present struggles with hope;
Knowing that He will never leave us, nor forsake us.

@atpollard
Any of the rest that I could post would only serve to further develop my own understanding of the book, and would not and should not be taken authoritatively;
As God's children have it within themselves to read it and come to their own understanding of it.

But "piggybacking" off the understandings of men and institutions of men, especially knowing that there are false teachers and preachers out there?
We as believers should never do that, even if it seems that they may very well be correct.

Rather, I hold that if a believer or group of believers has trouble coming to a fuller understanding of what we see as "problem passages", especially a book that hops around as much as Revelation does ( describing both past and future happenings in Heaven and earth ), we should all the more commit ourselves to studying more deeply... knowing and trusting that the Lord will reward us, individually, with those answers.

All:

Personally speaking, I've often found the value of waiting on the Lord to clear things up about subjects that I've "jumped the gun" and misunderstood over the years;
Being tempted to adopt the understanding of someone else, especially someone who may be more knowledgeable ( or even seem more knowledgeable ), is something that I've had to fight for over 46 years now.

But I can assure you that the Lord rewards those who, through diligence, seek Him and His ways, both through His word and through prayer.

My point?
Dig into the Scriptures, my friends, and do your best to avail yourselves of what God has given to each of us, as individuals in the body...
The privilege and ability to read and understand His word for ourselves:

" Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." ( 2 Timothy 2:15 ).

Studying it, over time, does indeed result in rightly dividing it...
For those who have ears to hear.

My point?
Dig into the Scriptures, my friends, and do your best to avail yourselves of what God has given to each of us, as individuals in the body...
The privilege and ability to read and understand His word for ourselves:

" Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." ( 2 Timothy 2:15 ).

Studying it, over time, does indeed result in rightly dividing it...
For those who have ears to hear.

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I agree wholeheartedly with the need to keep studying Scripture for ourselves while waiting on God in His sovereignty to illumine us when He sees fit. I have experienced this many times in my years as a believer.

Matt 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Matt 17:1,2 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. V 9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

What was the transfiguration a vision of?

I was in the Spirit on the Lord's-day, and I heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, saying, Rev 1:10
V 13-16 and in the midst of the seven lamp-stands, one like to a son of man, clothed to the foot, and girt round at the breast with a golden girdle, and his head and hairs white, as if white wool -- as snow, and his eyes as a flame of fire; and his feet like to fine brass, as in a furnace having been fired, and his voice as a sound of many waters, and having in his right hand seven stars, and out of his mouth a sharp two-edged sword is proceeding, and his countenance is as the sun shining in its might.

Joel 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
1 Thes 4:15-17 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: [the trumpet that is blown in Zion on the day of the Lord] and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

V 19 'Write the things that thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to come after these things;


What was the present, the things that are, in Revelation. Is the things that are, the the day of the Lord? Is that day, a day, as a thousand years?

Just some thoughts.

percho said:

What was the present, the things that are, in Revelation. Is the things that are, the day of the Lord? Is that day, a day, as a thousand years?

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Seems that seven letters to seven neighboring churches = "things that are"

The rest is prophetic and, obviously, not yet fulfilled.

atpollard said:

I heard a talk on the Book of Revelation that made what I thought might be a valid point. Brandon Robbins suggested that Revelation was written to the people living at that time, people going through horrific persecution, to whom each of the “apocalyptic literature” symbols would have been painfully obvious. The book starts out with seven real churches with seven very real conditions that Christians living under that culture and persecution would have been familiar with. The horsemen represent sufferings like war and famine and oppression that those people would have been only too familiar with. After acknowledging their suffering, the veil is pulled back and John/God reveal the spiritual war going on unseen behind the events of their hard lives (offering a glimpse and a hope that Satan would ultimately be defeated). Lastly comes the climax, a glimpse of the end with the ULTIMATE PROMISE that God will not merely triumph, but that those that are suffering NOW will one day be with Him and everything will be made RIGHT.

It is not intended to be a literal future prophecy for future generations to pick apart into complex debated timelines, it is a symbolic code for people IN a hard times to find hope. It was written to THEM about THEIR TIME, but it is timeless because Christians suffer and struggle in EVERY TIME. We have done an injustice to the church by making it about some FUTURE EVENTS when it is about getting through PRESENT STRUGGLES with Hope.

As just one small example, 144,000 is 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 … 12 is the number of God’s People (how many times is that used symbolically in scripture), so 12 x 12 is all of Gods people (Jews and Gentiles). 10 is symbolic of “many”, so 10x10x10 is many x many x many … basically “infinite”. So putting those together means that 144,000 is “ALL OF GOD’S PEOPLE, A MULTITUDE BEYOND COUNTING” … now what did John promise would happen to this multitude of God’s People … and remember that he made this promise to people that were LIVING (and dying) through the events of the Horsemen. Do you think that might have offered some encouragement to them in the middle of their hard times? Do you think it might still offer some encouragement to people living through their own personal hard times TODAY?

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So Pretiestism then?

JesusFan said:

So Pretiestism then?

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I am hard wired to be unapologetically Aristotelian in my thinking. As a result, when I read the bible and came to Revelation, I read it the same way I read through the long genealogies in the OT [I do not understand why this is here or what point it is attempting to make, but LORD, just let me get through it and be done with this section.]

As a result, I do not have a sufficient vocabulary in eschatology to know the difference between Pretiestism and Amillenialism to answer your question.

Recently, I have taken a hard look at Revelation based on a new hermeneutic. I am approaching it from the assumption that is is NOT a mysterious collection of indecipherable symbols, but was written to people that knew EXACTLY what the author John was talking about. The present difficulty arises from the simple fact that as an Aristotelian thinker, I want it to be linear and prophetic and sequential … all the things we expect in western literature. Unfortunately, it is written as ‘friggin’ Hebrew literature, which is NOT linear and NOT sequential … it is THEMATICALLY organized and draws on hundreds of OT images that I barely recognize plus stupid cultural traditions that I never knew.

From this new hermeneutic, it is a letter written to a specific audience (those living in Asia Minor at the time John was imprisoned in Patmos). We have to figure out what they knew to understand the message that was painfully obvious to them. The reason it belongs in scripture and matters to us is not because it is warning us about a future ‘gloom and doom’ that we will suffer through, or be plucked out of the middle of, or be snatched out and avoid, or die long before it actually happens …. The reason it matters is because it is a SPIRITUAL message to people going through hard times (and we all go through hard times) about how to survive those hard times plus encouragement that the hard times are FINITE, while the KINGDOM that comes after those hard times is INFINITE. When THEY were in the middle of hard times, they needed to hear that GOD WINS. When WE are in the middle of hard times, we need to hear that GOD WINS.

Since most of y’all are better at these terms than I am … does that make me guilty of “Pretiestism”?

atpollard said:

Revelation is not about the FUTURE​

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Yes.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;,,,,,,, Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand. Rev 1: 1, 3

I come quickly: hold fast that which thou hast, that no one take thy crown. Rev 3:11

Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe for the earth and for the sea: because the devil is gone down unto you, having great wrath, knowing that he hath but a short time. Rev 12: 12

And behold, I come quickly. Blessed is he that keepeth the words of the prophecy of this book.,,,,,,,,,, And he saith unto me, Seal not up the words of the prophecy of this book; for the time is at hand.,,,,,,,, Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to each man according as his work is.,,,,,,,,,,,,,, He who testifieth these things saith, Yea: I come quickly. Amen: come, Lord Jesus. Rev 22:7,10,12,20

Dispy twist: Plain time statements given in the scriptures, i.e., "this generation shall not pass away", or "the time is at hand", or "a very little while", or "must shortly come to pass", or "I come quickly", or "shall in no wise taste of death till", really means thousands of years...and still waiting.

Seven seals, seven trumpets, seven angels, seven bowls, read the curses of Lev 26/Dt 28 (and others) from the OT; the wrath poured out upon 'the land', the judgment of the great Harlot.

18 And if ye will not yet for these things hearken unto me, then I will chastise you seven times more for your sins.
21 And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me, I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins.
24 then will I also walk contrary unto you; and I will smite you, even I, seven times for your sins.
28 then I will walk contrary unto you in wrath; and I also will chastise you seven times for your sins. Lev 26

Dr. Bob said:

Seems that seven letters to seven neighboring churches = "things that are"

The rest is prophetic and, obviously, not yet fulfilled.

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Afterwards the spirit took me up, and brought me in a vision by the Spirit of God into Chaldea, to them of the captivity. So the vision that I had seen went up from me. Ezek 11:24

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Could those two verses be understood in the same context relative to the Spirit?

Could the vision of the churches not be the things John had seen? Isn't he considered to be a very old man when Rev was given to him?
.
Would you say Rev 21 and 22 would be considered to be, what shall be, following the Lord's day and or the day of the Lord?

I am not putting anything is stone, I am just putting forth a thought. I have not tried to balance the thought to all the book.

Besides the obvious fact that this book IS NOT,
"The Revelation of the Apostle John", but of course, it is as it says, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ",

another tremendously important, huge thing, about the first verse in Revelation that most everyone misses
and many versions do not express at all, is where the Bible says that after God Gave Jesus this Revelation,
Jesus Sent and "SIGNIFIED" The Book of Revelation, meaning that it's Apocalyptic Genre
of having been written utilizing symbolic pictures throughout it is no secret, so the idea of
:always, always giving the overwhelming insistence on forcing a literal-literal 'letterism-type' interpretation on it,
is not only ill-advised and unnecessary, but that would actually be running counter to what the Revelation says, itself.

1 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God Gave unto Him,
to Shew unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass;
and He Sent and signified it by His Angel unto His servant John:"

Then, while we keep in mind that it is describing what John saw, which were all in Visions,

2 "Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ,
and of all things that he saw."

We are Blessed to also know that we are Promised
that we are Blessed when we read, hear, and keep the things that are written in it.

Which means? 'We are Blessed' when we read and hear
and WE MUST BE ABLE TO UNDERSTAND IT,
BECAUSE IT SAYS THERE ARE THINGS THAT WE "KEEP"
THOSE THINGS THAT ARE WRITTEN THEREIN.

In fact, having studied it for many years, I am with many others who believe that
The Book of Revelation IS THE MOST 'PRACTICAL' BOOK IN THE BIBLE.

It's lessons are for us to learn and "keep", NOW!, to be "Blessed", NOW!!!

3 "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy,
and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand."
...

I am with this guy all the way, except I don't stop with the first century saints having had it written to them,
where, yes, they understood it, and were able to "keep" it, to be "Blessed", but also, as he kind of gets more into, below,

The Book of Revelations themes and messages that are applicable to those in the first century
are definitely applicable to us, now, but that they have also been applicable to the saints in every Age, since it was written.

The Book of Revelation teaches various Spiritual Principals, which are applicable throughout the Age of The Lord's Churches,
or since it was written, until now and then, until The Lord Comes the Second Time.

atpollard said:

Brandon Robbins suggested that Revelation was written to the people living at that time, people going through horrific persecution, to whom each of the “apocalyptic literature” symbols would have been painfully obvious.

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...
Yes, as this says, they were real and really understood, 1.) that it was written to them, and B.) they could understand it;

atpollard said:

The book starts out with seven real churches with seven very real conditions that Christians living under that culture and persecution would have been familiar with.

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This is absolutely, perfectly right, and that veil is pulled back FOR US TOO, OF COURSE.

That is WHY it is called, "THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST".

atpollard said:

After acknowledging their suffering, the veil is pulled back and John/God reveal the spiritual war going on unseen behind the events of their hard lives (offering a glimpse and a hope that Satan would ultimately be defeated).

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This is what that looks like, if you get to it.

A. The struggle on earth. The Church persecuted by the world.
The Church is avenged, protected and victorious (Rev. 1-11).
1. Christ in the midst of the seven golden lampstands (1-3).
2. The book with seven seals (4-7).
3. The seven trumpets of judgment (8-11).

B. The deeper spiritual background.
The Christ (and the Church) persecuted by the dragon (Satan) and his helpers.
Christ and His Church are victorious (Rev. 12-22).
4. The woman and the Man-child persecuted by the dragon and his helpers (the beasts and the harlot) (12-14).
5. The seven bowls of wrath (15, 16).
6. The fall of the great harlot and of the beasts (17-19).
7. The judgment upon the dragon (Satan) followed by the new heaven and earth, new Jerusalem (20-22).

...

ISN'T THIS THE BLESSING OF ALL BLESSINGS OF BLESSINGS?
IMAGINE OUR CREATOR GOD HAS SHOWN US HIS REVLATION OF ALL THESE THINGS
AND THE ULYIMATE GLORY WE WILL HAVE WITH GOD FOREVER!!

atpollard said:

Lastly comes the climax, a glimpse of the end with the ULTIMATE PROMISE that God will not merely triumph, but that those that are suffering NOW will one day be with Him and everything will be made RIGHT.

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...

Now, this goes too far, for me, and yet it is putting a restriction in once place IT HAS TO BE.

For example, for those who aren't familiar yet with the inherent structure of The Book of Revelation
being divided into seven sections, each of which is one of the seven Visions, for one thing.

Then, where they know that each of those seven Visions cover the exact same period of time.
For example when the Vision John had in Revelation 1 thru 3, when he was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, is over,

the Second Vision begins by doing what? Chapter 4 takes us right back to the Ascension of Jesus Christ
and talks about Him Assuming His Throne in Heaven, right after His Public Ministry, after His First Advent, or Coming to Earth.

"I saw a throne standing in heaven, with someone seated on it." Revelation 4:2b.

And with that Vision being shown to go back and begin speaking about things around the Time after Jesus' Fisrt Advent,
ALL THE OTHER VISIONS HAVE VERSES WHICH TELL US THAT THEIR TIMETABLE AND TIMELINE
BEGINS AFTER JESUS' FIRST ADVENT, TOO.

AND WHAT ELSE? Each of all Seven Segments/Visions ALSO HAVE VERSES DESCRIBING THE END OF THE WORLD!

WHICH MEANS WHAT? Just what I was saying, each Vision covers the same Period of Time,
which is from Jesus' First Advent, until Jesus' Second Advent!!! Each of the do, separately, meaning?

With the each covering that same Period of Time = Our Whole New Testament Era, then THEY WOULD HAVE TVERLAP.

And, they do. Right on top of one another. The Second Vision Overlaps right back over the first,
then the Third Vision Overlaps right back over those first two and has language in it which dates its contents,
to be until His Second Coming, because at the close of this section there is a very clear reference to the final judgment:

"The Dominion over the World became the Dominion of our Lord, and of His Christ: and He shall Reign For Ever and Ever."
& in, "... And the nations were wroth, and Thy Wrath Came, and the Time of the dead to be Judged... ’ (11: 15, 18).

Get it? Final Judgement took place in Chapter 8 verses 11, 15 & 18.

But the Final Judgement had already taken place in Chapter



LET THE BOOK OF REVELATION UNFOLD TO YOU, FOR ONCE.

atpollard said:

It is not intended to be a literal future prophecy for future generations to pick apart into complex debated timelines

Click to expand...

Want to hear something wrong? Reading the Book of Revelation, chapter by chapter, chronologically,
and trying to make sense of anything about it is wrong, wrong, wrong, IMPOSSIBLE, AND NOT RIGHT TO ATTEMPT.

IT WASN'T WRITTEN THAT WAY AND, THEREFORE, WAS NEVER INTENDED TO BE TRIED TO BE UNDERSTOOD THAT WAY.

NO WAY.

So, TWO MAJOR FLUBS FOLLOW EACH OTHER.

1. It's wrong to try and interpret Revelation by reading it chapter after chapter all the way through,
& 2. by doing that, folks just automatically try to say, "DON'T WORRY, NONE OF IT HAS TO DO WITH US AT ALL. IT'S ALL FUTURE".

THAT IS ALL A LIE.

ONE BIG HUGE ENORMOUS 18, 20, 22 CHAPTER LONG LIE!!!

& 3. AND THEN, THEY TRY TO COME UP WITH SOMETHING THEY SAY IT IS SAYING????

THAT CRAZY STUFF DON'T WORK!!!

You've got Pre-Mills and Post-Mills both dependent on Jesus Reigning "a thousand years" on Earth,
WHEN THE BIBLE, IN REVELATION 20:4-6, TALKING ABOUT "A THOUSAND YEARS JESUS REIGNS"
SAYS NOTHING ABOUT THAT "THOUSAND YEARS" TAKING PLACE ON EARTH, AT ALL(???)

I told you; It don't work.

atpollard said:

, it is a symbolic code for people IN a hard times to find hope.

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Yes, all throughout the entire New Testament Era, Age of Churches that we are in, NOW!!

atpollard said:

. It was written to THEM about THEIR TIME, but it is timeless because Christians suffer and struggle in EVERY TIME.

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I'm saying that its principals and teachings are applicable to all saints throughout The Church Age that we are now in.

"Wherever there is a church, it is a lampstand or light- bearer
so that we see the light of Christ shining in the midst of the darkness (chapters 1-3).

"Wherever this happens, the world hates the Church; the darkness refuses to be conquered by the light.
Persecution follows; also trials of every description (chapters 4-7).

"These trials, however, are overruled for the good of the Church. The throne is always in heaven, not on earth.
Believers are always victorious. They come out of the tribulation, the great one.
Wherever and whenever the Church is persecuted, the Lord hears and answers the prayers of His persecuted children.
He sees the blood of the martyred saints, and trumpets of judgment warn the wicked (chapters 8-11).

"This struggle on the surface—between Church and world—
always indicates a deeper struggle between Christ and the dragon (chapters 12-14).

"For the impenitent, bowls of final wrath always follow trumpets of judgment (chapters 15, 16).

"That is true today; it was true yesterday; it will be true to morrow, whether you live in Africa, Europe, or America.
Satan and all his helpers always seem to be victorious, but in reality are always defeated (chapters 17-19; also 20-22).

"Thus interpreted—and we are convinced that this is the only tenable explanation—
the Apocalypse is really very simple. It is simple and yet most profound. It gives us the real philosophy of history.

"It shows us the principles of human and satanic conduct and of divine moral government as they are constantly revealing themselves.

'It indicates how we should interpret the news contained in our newspapers
and the events which we study in history books." pg. 40 More Than Conquerors, below.

atpollard said:

We have done an injustice to the church by making it about some FUTURE EVENTS when it is about getting through PRESENT STRUGGLES with Hope.

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YES, TO SAY THAT IT IS ALL FUTURE ROOOOOBS THE LORD'S PEOPLE OF THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST AS IT IS WRITTEN!!!!

Of course, that is Satan doing that, because HIS DOOMED IS PRONOUNCED IN REVELATION,
BUT WE DON'T NEED TO HELP SATAN AND A LOST WORLD, BY NOT SHOWING OURSELVES APPROVED AND GET IT THE WAY IT WAS INTENDED TO BE UNDERSTOOD AND THE ONLY WAY, NOT 14 DIFFERENT WAYS, SATAN, AND NOT 2.

ONE.



If you want to know more about what I have mentioned about these things,
there is no better place to start than in the first 6 chapters of "More than Conquerors":,

JUST 50 PAGES! I RECOMMEND READING THEM EACH 50 TIMES!!!

here in a free .pdf on line, at: chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://tbc.tn-biblecollege.edu/files/tbc/resthistlib/Hendricksen-W-More_Than_Conquerors_-1940.pdf

CHAPTER I: PURPOSE, THEME AND AUTHORSHIP OF REVELATION. pg.7,
I. THE PURPOSE OF THE BOOK.
II. THE THEME OF THE BOOK.
III. THE PEOPLE TO WHOM THE BOOK IS ADDRESSED.

CHAPTER II GENERAL ANALYSIS, pg. 16,
CHAPTER III THE UNITY OF THE BOOK, pg. 24,
CHAPTER IV THE PROGRESSIVE TEACHING CONCERNING FINAL JUDGMENT pg. 34,
CHAPTER V THE SYMBOLISM IN THE BOOK pg. 37,
CHAPTER VI BACKGROUND AND BASIS FOR INTERPRETATION pg. 44-50.

kyredneck said:

Yes.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;,,,,,,, Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand. Rev 1: 1, 3

I come quickly: hold fast that which thou hast, that no one take thy crown. Rev 3:11

Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe for the earth and for the sea: because the devil is gone down unto you, having great wrath, knowing that he hath but a short time. Rev 12: 12

And behold, I come quickly. Blessed is he that keepeth the words of the prophecy of this book.,,,,,,,,,, And he saith unto me, Seal not up the words of the prophecy of this book; for the time is at hand.,,,,,,,, Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to each man according as his work is.,,,,,,,,,,,,,, He who testifieth these things saith, Yea: I come quickly. Amen: come, Lord Jesus. Rev 22:7,10,12,20

Dispy twist: Plain time statements given in the scriptures, i.e., "this generation shall not pass away", or "the time is at hand", or "a very little while", or "must shortly come to pass", or "I come quickly", or "shall in no wise taste of death till", really means thousands of years...and still waiting.

Seven seals, seven trumpets, seven angels, seven bowls, read the curses of Lev 26/Dt 28 (and others) from the OT; the wrath poured out upon 'the land', the judgment of the great Harlot.

18 And if ye will not yet for these things hearken unto me, then I will chastise you seven times more for your sins.
21 And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me, I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins.
24 then will I also walk contrary unto you; and I will smite you, even I, seven times for your sins.
28 then I will walk contrary unto you in wrath; and I also will chastise you seven times for your sins. Lev 26

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Dual fulfillment, as was written to times happening in Rome under Emperor, which was a type of the far worse Antichrist yet to come in future, so message of hope to them of that time, and to future times

Alan Dale Gross said:

Yes, all throughout the entire New Testament Era, Age of Churches that we are in, NOW!!

I'm saying that its principals and teachings are applicable to all saints throughout The Church Age that we are now in.

"Wherever there is a church, it is a lampstand or light- bearer
so that we see the light of Christ shining in the midst of the darkness (chapters 1-3).

"Wherever this happens, the world hates the Church; the darkness refuses to be conquered by the light.
Persecution follows; also trials of every description (chapters 4-7).

"These trials, however, are overruled for the good of the Church. The throne is always in heaven, not on earth.
Believers are always victorious. They come out of the tribulation, the great one.
Wherever and whenever the Church is persecuted, the Lord hears and answers the prayers of His persecuted children.
He sees the blood of the martyred saints, and trumpets of judgment warn the wicked (chapters 8-11).

"This struggle on the surface—between Church and world—
always indicates a deeper struggle between Christ and the dragon (chapters 12-14).

"For the impenitent, bowls of final wrath always follow trumpets of judgment (chapters 15, 16).

"That is true today; it was true yesterday; it will be true to morrow, whether you live in Africa, Europe, or America.
Satan and all his helpers always seem to be victorious, but in reality are always defeated (chapters 17-19; also 20-22).

"Thus interpreted—and we are convinced that this is the only tenable explanation—
the Apocalypse is really very simple. It is simple and yet most profound. It gives us the real philosophy of history.

"It shows us the principles of human and satanic conduct and of divine moral government as they are constantly revealing themselves.

'It indicates how we should interpret the news contained in our newspapers
and the events which we study in history books." pg. 40 More Than Conquerors, below.


YES, TO SAY THAT IT IS ALL FUTURE ROOOOOBS THE LORD'S PEOPLE OF THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST AS IT IS WRITTEN!!!!

Of course, that is Satan doing that, because HIS DOOMED IS PRONOUNCED IN REVELATION,
BUT WE DON'T NEED TO HELP SATAN AND A LOST WORLD, BY NOT SHOWING OURSELVES APPROVED AND GET IT THE WAY IT WAS INTENDED TO BE UNDERSTOOD AND THE ONLY WAY, NOT 14 DIFFERENT WAYS, SATAN, AND NOT 2.

ONE.



If you want to know more about what I have mentioned about these things,
there is no better place to start than in the first 6 chapters of "More than Conquerors":,

JUST 50 PAGES! I RECOMMEND READING THEM EACH 50 TIMES!!!

here in a free .pdf on line, at: chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://tbc.tn-biblecollege.edu/files/tbc/resthistlib/Hendricksen-W-More_Than_Conquerors_-1940.pdf

CHAPTER I: PURPOSE, THEME AND AUTHORSHIP OF REVELATION. pg.7,
I. THE PURPOSE OF THE BOOK.
II. THE THEME OF THE BOOK.
III. THE PEOPLE TO WHOM THE BOOK IS ADDRESSED.

CHAPTER II GENERAL ANALYSIS, pg. 16,
CHAPTER III THE UNITY OF THE BOOK, pg. 24,
CHAPTER IV THE PROGRESSIVE TEACHING CONCERNING FINAL JUDGMENT pg. 34,
CHAPTER V THE SYMBOLISM IN THE BOOK pg. 37,
CHAPTER VI BACKGROUND AND BASIS FOR INTERPRETATION pg. 44-50.

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many things address there in Revelation yet to have happened yet though

atpollard said:

I am hard wired to be unapologetically Aristotelian in my thinking. As a result, when I read the bible and came to Revelation, I read it the same way I read through the long genealogies in the OT [I do not understand why this is here or what point it is attempting to make, but LORD, just let me get through it and be done with this section.]

As a result, I do not have a sufficient vocabulary in eschatology to know the difference between Pretiestism and Amillenialism to answer your question.

Recently, I have taken a hard look at Revelation based on a new hermeneutic. I am approaching it from the assumption that is is NOT a mysterious collection of indecipherable symbols, but was written to people that knew EXACTLY what the author John was talking about. The present difficulty arises from the simple fact that as an Aristotelian thinker, I want it to be linear and prophetic and sequential … all the things we expect in western literature. Unfortunately, it is written as ‘friggin’ Hebrew literature, which is NOT linear and NOT sequential … it is THEMATICALLY organized and draws on hundreds of OT images that I barely recognize plus stupid cultural traditions that I never knew.

From this new hermeneutic, it is a letter written to a specific audience (those living in Asia Minor at the time John was imprisoned in Patmos). We have to figure out what they knew to understand the message that was painfully obvious to them. The reason it belongs in scripture and matters to us is not because it is warning us about a future ‘gloom and doom’ that we will suffer through, or be plucked out of the middle of, or be snatched out and avoid, or die long before it actually happens …. The reason it matters is because it is a SPIRITUAL message to people going through hard times (and we all go through hard times) about how to survive those hard times plus encouragement that the hard times are FINITE, while the KINGDOM that comes after those hard times is INFINITE. When THEY were in the middle of hard times, they needed to hear that GOD WINS. When WE are in the middle of hard times, we need to hear that GOD WINS.

Since most of y’all are better at these terms than I am … does that make me guilty of “Pretiestism”?

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Basically its the view that the second coming and RTevelation evets fully fulfilled in AD 70 when Rome wiped out the Holy City and destroyed temple so really nothing left to happen anymore

JesusFan said:

many things address there in Revelation yet to have happened yet though

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Just none on Earth, certainly, after Jesus' Return in Judgment. That is The End of The World.

See: The 'SEVEN ENDS of THE WORLD' in The Book of Revelation.

Revelation 1:19, . . . Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; . . .

The hereafter when this was written was then Future. And is now.