Single? Christian?

Actually, I was so tired that it could have been orange with purple stripes and I wouldn't have known the difference.

If I was snappy with you, I am sorry.

Peace-

Scarlett O.
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There is also another aspect of "singleness" that is, in fact, mentioned by Jesus Christ Himself in Matthew 19:11-12: "But he [Jesus] said unto them, 'All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given. For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there were some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.'"

This is something that is rarely mentioned in Christian circles in this day and age; and, if it is mentioned at all, more than likely it is approached in either some Catholic context (monasticism), or with a flippant ["Yeah...right!"] approach, or in an ambience of a far out, mystical state of some unattainable [hence, undesirable] aura that's "out there, but could never apply to me, so I'll just conveniently hide from it and maybe it'll go away" attitude.

But, my friends, just because it's not been the subject of a rather intense "Christian media" blitz (cf. The Promise Keepers, for example), or is not one on which you will find an exhaustive amount of print or other audio/visual media focusing on this subject, does not mean that it can and should be either ignored or its importance marginalized.

If the very Creator of the universe and our Redeemer said it, then He had it placed in His Word for SOME reason, didn't He?

By the very nature of "Eunuchism," what He said would primarily apply to a male, although I suppose it could, secondarily, also apply to females.

Perhaps it applies to this writer who was saved at age 20 in 1966 and is now approaching age 59 (and, yes, in spite of myself, am STILL saved!). I am not married, I have never been married, and, as best I can tell, probably will not be married. Maybe God has given me the same kind of calling that He gave Jeremiah in 16:1-2.

I am not complaining, but, on the other hand, when it comes to your typical "multi-ministried" church outreach programs, I haven't found any that "minister to" people in this category. Yes, I'm single, but I'm probably old enough to be the father (or maybe even the grandfather) of the average member of a "singles" group. I'm bumping age 60 (only 14 months to go!), but when the "seniors" have a grandparent/grandchild picnic, I would probably feel a little out of place.

As I said, I'm not complaining, nor have I spent sleepless nights in fervent prayer begging on bended knee that God will "speed up the process" when it comes to finding my "soulmate" either.

Nor do I worry that much about what "others" think about me. Oh yes, I've been accused of being gay ["Why else would he not have had a wife and children by now?"], being "incomplete" ["A person who isn't married is like a V-8 running on only 4 cylinders, you know. Better get busy and find the 'other half' before it's too late!"], and "inadequate" in either some physiological or mental state of being.

I said all of this not because I want folks to feel sorry for me. You can save your pity for someone else. All that I'm trying to say is that maybe God is or has called you to this kind of "marital status."

How does one objectively determine whether this is what God wants for you? I honestly couldn't tell you. I don't despise the other gender. I don't hate children (in fact, I LOVE children and served many years in the bus ministry and AWANAs). Maybe I don't do well on the dating scene (I haven't found that many 58 YO virgin women just beating a path to my doorstep, but it doesn't really bother me either).

Yes, there have been many so-called "God fearing, Bible loving, Christ honoring" people that have considered me either a "loser," or "out of God's will," but that's their problem.

Folks, Matthew 19:11-12 is just as much Bible as John 3:16. If we SAY we believe and obey God's Word, then we cannot ignore or rationalize those verses away either. They ARE THERE, now what are we going to do about them?

Actually, I was so tired that it could have been orange with purple stripes and I wouldn't have known the difference.

If I was snappy with you, I am sorry.

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Apology accepted.

I was generalizing because I do see a trend in our culture that is away from marriage. I do think that many Christian singles are buying into the world's philosophy on this matter. I found that I had bought into it. However, that does not mean that everyone has and it certainly does not mean that I think you have.

As Christians, we need to observe our culture, evaluate it, and respond to it. Sometimes that means we find something in the culture that is good and we participate. Other times we find a trend in culture and we become counter-culture.

Originally posted by rustynail:
TC--
I'm just your old fashioned fundamental Baptist preacher, with my normal old fashioned fundamental preacher "Christian" values. From what I got from your reply, does this mean that you condone two unmarried people living together, having babies out of wedlock, etc., etc.?

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I certainly do not see where you got that from my reply. It is a simple truth that sometimes people just need to but out of others peoples business and do what God tells them to do. Jesus told Peter to never mind about John and just follow me. Today, we spend much time worrying about what others are doing and we do not mind the things we should be doing ourselves.

Someone posted that since there is no biblical example of folks on the BB posting debates on the internet that James should pack up his PC. This line of reasoning is silly and immature. Of course there are miriads of biblical examples of public (internet) debates. The issue is not whether or not dating automatically leads to fornication. The question is whether or not dating is a sin. Br. James has asked a very compelling question; are there any biblical examples of "dating" in the scripture?

I think the idea of dating is sinful. Dating is not sanctioned (sp) by God anywhere in the whole of scripture. (I will allow any one to give one example or even a hint of it.) Ok, I just thought of an example (biblical) of dating. Proverbs 7:6-27. There it is.

Dating is a modern idea. What, are you test driving the person? Who knows, this may be someone elses wife/husband. What are you doing taking her/him for a spin? Modern believers spend too much time watching television allowing there world view to be shaped by Hellywood, and not enough time in the scripture!

The biblical idea is for a man or woman to seek the Lord and his Kingdom first (not second or third). Afterward, God, in his graciousness, will present to the person his/her soul mate. Marriage is an eternal covenant between one man and one woman. Eternal (in this life). The reason why the divorce rate is so high among believers is they quit reading the bible for guidance in daily life (2Pet 1:3) and spent that time waiting for new revelation from their new spiritual guru, television programming and Hellywood!

Brother, the answer is NO! Dating is not biblical.

What say ye?
-DeaconLew

What say ye?
-DeaconLew

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MMM ... do you want me to answer that?

God bless brother!

Wayne

Originally posted by DeaconLew:

Brother, the answer is NO! Dating is not biblical.

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Thank goodness I did not rely on my pagan parents to pick my spouse. I married a very godly lady who knows what it is like to share her faith and make a Christian home.

An American home with flush toilets and electricity is not biblial either.

American culture is not biblical. Cars are not biblical.

I am a single Grandma, and there are no single men my age in my church, so I signed up online to try and find some good Christian men that might be interested in communicating and maybe meeting. I do not plan to have premarital sex, I want to find a friend and companion first and foremost who loves the Lord and is tired of being alone.

Nothing about online meeting services suggests fornication!!!

ktn4eg: amen, amen, amen!

No one is suggesting that you allow your parents, if they are not saved, to pick your spouse. But the question, never-the-less, was is there a mandate for Christians dating in the scripture? The answer is an overwhelming NO!

What is acceptacble in scripture is courting. Courting and dating are not the same. For example:
Court v.t. 2. To woo; to solicit for marriage (Webster's 1828)
Date, well there is no such thing as it in 1828. Let's look elsewhere.

Google, Define: Date
Definitions of date on the Web:
a meeting arranged in advance; "she asked how to avoid kissing at the end of a date"
a participant in a date; "his date never stopped talking"
go on a date with; "Tonight she is dating a former high school sweetheart"

Merriam Webster Online
Date: 4 : to make or have a date with

Yahoo Education online
Date: 4 To go on a date or dates with.

Notice that dating has no marriage in mind. Just, you know, test drivin' her.

Please note the following (lengthy)
Romance in the United States today most often follows a pattern of recreational dating. A typical “date” may be generally defined as follows: “A date is a meeting of two people, generally of the opposite sex, with the intention of arousing passion for one another at some point in time.” This system is a relatively new and uniquely American invention , which even today is only beginning to penetrate foreign cultures. Until the early twentieth century, courtship generally served as the rule of romance...The evolution of modern dating began in the 1920's ...

Over time, this idea of going out gained acceptance, and family-centered courtship faded as young lovers shifted towards planning outings and appointments, or “dates.” As parental influence waned in relationships, so did outside authority and accountability . Dating moved ... deeper and deeper into recreational activities, until today dating has become, to many, a recreation in itself. As such, it is not considered a serious commitment, but an opportunity for fun among friends. Neither has it remained limited to those planning for marriage, but instead is practiced in various degrees by young people of literally every age.

By applying Biblical principles to romance, we arrive at something very different from the dating pattern of today. The conventional dating method operates in harmony with the flow of modern cultural thought . Our culture has chosen man’s law over God’s law, and thus, by denying God and reckoning humans as the measure of truth, our culture has chosen a Secular Humanist Worldview, which can result only in the philosophy of Relativism, which denies the very existence of universal, transcendent truth. Relativism can be easily detected in common remarks such as, “Maybe that’s true for you, but of course you can’t impose your values on anyone else.” It is because of this denial of absolute truth, inconsistent with the fundamental operating Laws of Nature established by God, that our modern society is faced with disorder and so many dilemmas; we can eliminate the dilemmas of our society only by bringing our society back to the truth of God’s Word.

For Christians, one of the inherent dangers of modern dating is passivity. To fall into the dating trend is to allow culture to determine the course of our lives. Such passivity promotes ideas such as “instant gratification.” Dating does not teach self-control and the delay of gratification, as some of its proponents may claim. On the contrary, it teaches us to “feel, don’t think,” and to live for today without thought for tomorrow. Christians, however, must strive to live by principle, virtuously, and in the best way life may be lived. In lofty aspiration to the ideal, we ought to recognize that of all the wonderful love stories that have been written, we now have an opportunity to determine our own! Instead of losing that opportunity to passivity, we must seize it to make our romance special. “Marriage ought to be made a study,” affirm Haines and Yaggy in The Royal Path of Life , “and it is not to be fallen into blindly” (261). We must follow God instead of the world, realizing that our present choices and actions will affect our future lives. Instead of the dating mentality of “How much can I get from this person without getting into trouble,” the courtship perspective asks, “Will these actions glorify God, or will I regret them someday? How much romance do I want to save for my lifetime partner?” While dating encourages instant gratification, courtship promotes foresight, develops self-control, and encourages us to live today in mind of tomorrow.

http://www.mobap.edu/student/collegian/mt/000188.asp (Emphasis added)

Isaac never "dated" Rebekah. Jacob never "dated" Leah or Rachel.

What say ye?
-DeaconLew

I appreciate ktn4eg post very much. There is a unbiblical culture within the modern day Church that views singles as second class citizens. Singleness can be a Gift for many as Jesus stated and even the Apostle Paul declared.

Isaac never "dated" Rebekah. Jacob never "dated" Leah or Rachel.

What say ye?

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Isaac never drove a car or used a computer. So, shall I get rid of mine. As I have said before, it is a cultural issue. Yes, there are dangers that must be avoided, but there are dangers in many things in life. For example, I still read my Bible even though there are those that pull a verse or phrase out of context and start a cult.

TC did you even read the post. No one in the bible spoke English, therefore english is not biblical!?! You responses are just as my post suggested, carnal and without understanding.

Just deal with the issue. Is there a biblical precept for dating in the scripture? NO.

What say ye?
-DeaconLew

There are many things the Bible does not address in the modern world - these have nothing to do with English. Dating is a cultural issue. Some cultures do and some don't. Both have their pros and cons.

DeaconLew, there is no biblical mandate for courtship either, and by the way, why don't you use a modern dictionary to define courtship instead of an outdated one.

When I dated my wife, it was for the purpose of marrying her.

Originally posted by DeaconLew:
I think the idea of dating is sinful. Dating is not sanctioned (sp) by God anywhere in the whole of scripture. (I will allow any one to give one example or even a hint of it.) Ok, I just thought of an example (biblical) of dating. Proverbs 7:6-27. There it is.

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No! That is an example of a woman wanting to commit adultery when the husband is not home. Got any more straws?

I must assume that none of you read the entire post. If you did your objections would seem just a vain to you as they do to me. As for the dictionary, I suppose you subscribe to the idea that newer is better. Hmmm what does the bible have to say about that?
Jeremiah 6:16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

There are laws in the universe that cannot be broken. One such law is the law of entropy(sp). This states that all things tend to decay. That includes languages. When I was growing up when I heard "that is bad." It meant that it was not good. As I got older the word bad took a new meaning to mean that which was good?! This is seen all around us. To this the scriptures agree.
Psalm 102:26 They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:
Isaiah 50:9 Behold, the Lord GOD will help me; who is he that shall condemn me? lo, they all shall wax old as a garment; the moth shall eat them up.
Isaiah 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
Hebrews 1:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

This is why I use "an outdated" dictionary, 'cause our times are too far away from God.

Courtship in the scripture. Courtship is scriptural in that the persons involved are held accountable. Accountability is a teaching of the scripture. Courtship is scriptural in that it avoids the appearance of evil. Avoiding all appearance of evil is clearly taught in scripture. Courtship is scriptural in that it involves the parents decision, on both sides. Surely you have seen this in the bible. Did not Abraham send his servant to get a wife for Isaac? Did not the servant talk with the perspective bride authority and get permission. This is clearly represented in the biblical precept of courtship.

I have taught my children that in those things that they do not understand, ask. I offer you the same advice. Ask. Quit making devilish statements supported by a complete hatred for biblical authority, fueled by the ungodly desire to satisfy the flesh.

Paul said, till I come give attendance to reading. Go back and read the post and see if your have judged what I said wisely.

What say ye?
-DeaconLew

Nic try at ripping Jeremiah out of context. the passage you reffer to has nothing to do with languages.

The fact is that language has always been changing, and that change is not always bad. For instance, there are some Greek words that took on a new meaning in the NT than what they were origianally used for. Case and point the word logos.

Also new things are invented everyday, I doubt your old dictionary has anything about flight, or automotives, or modern medical procedures for that matter. Words related to those subjects and many others are not "too far away from God" as you suggest.

Your logic regarding courtship is astounding.

You can not use OT cultural practice to base a modern idea on and label it "biblical". Yes accountability is taught in the Bible, but I can assure you that my dating relationship with my wife, was very accountable. My dating relationship with my wife had "no apperance of evil".

You accuse me of making "devilish statments" and that I have a "complete hatred" for biblical authority. I ask you on what do you base your accusations?
Can nobody disagree with you? I suppose we should all sit back and listen the words of a wise man.

What you espouse as courthsip is a MODERN idea, based off of OT cultural prctice, and taught as biblical truth by men such as Bill Gothard, and S.M. Davis.

I have never heard nor read any of these men's material on courtship. Forgive my sharpness, but I "deal" with folks that "reason" themselves out of clear biblical principals all the time. Please accept my apology.

Using the idea that modern is better, please reread my post. I gave nothing but modern definitions of "date." None of them have to do with marriage. The fact is no one dates with an end for marriage. God has never told anyone to do this (date).

Matthew 6 Seek ye first the kingdom of God
Pr 8 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
Mr 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

I know two couples where the men made the Lord their desire (Psalm 37) and the Lord gave them a wives. They did not seek them the way modern culture has dictated. They, using the biblical principals of scripture, courted. The families met and had lenghty engagements to make sure this was the will of God. They got biblical counsel from the Pastor (not a psychologist). They NEVER TOUCHED EACH OTHER. Never held hands NEVER disobeyed the scripture.
1Co 7:1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
Their marriages are the strongest of any Christian that I know.

Relationships that start out bad, have a higher probability of ending the same.

What say ye?
-DeaconLew

Amen, but for the power of God and His mercy, my 'modern' marriage would have already ended in the same manner as most these days. I do not have the ability to change the way I met my wife, but I would never recommend to a young Christian that they shop around a while. This will almost always lead to 'buyer's remorse' as we are seeing in today's modern culture at large, as well as the modern church. What were the statistics Barna came up with on Christian divorce? Not much different from the rest of society.