What say me? Phariseeism !!! If you have a problem with people dating, you should look into your own heart and find out why. I have no problem with a man and a woman going out on dates. How are we supposed to find a mate with with to raise up godly children, to fill our quivers with the arrows that we are supposed to shoot out into the world? What is wrong here is some people know that they have a lust problem and want to transfer that to others to make themselves feel better. Phariseeism !!! I suppose we are to send out one of our servants to stand by the well and see which woman draws water for the servant and his livestock huh? That's biblical right? You ASSUME that everyone who dates commits fornication. That is simply not the case. Thank you for the "example" of biblical dating in Proverbs 7. If that is your example, then you just shot yourself in the foot friend.
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Single? Christian?
- Thread starter James_Newman
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James_Newman
New Member
Why not go to church and meet a godly woman to marry? Why does getting married have to begin with dating? No one is assuming that everyone who dates is fornicating, but I think some assume that everything short of fornicating is clean in the eyes of God. I don't think its ok to even be thinking about fornicating, and I think Jesus agrees with me.
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
2Ti 2:22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
If you are 'dating' in a manner that keeps you accountable (group settings?) and you are not getting into intimate physical contact, then I suppose it is fine. But if you are inflaming those youthful lusts by intimate contact, kissing, petting, etc... is that considered holy in the sight of God?
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
2Ti 2:22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
If you are 'dating' in a manner that keeps you accountable (group settings?) and you are not getting into intimate physical contact, then I suppose it is fine. But if you are inflaming those youthful lusts by intimate contact, kissing, petting, etc... is that considered holy in the sight of God?
Again, you assume that by dating there IS fornicating (by thought or deed) going on. And, what is this "accountability" garbage. I'm accountable to God, not man. If you are so weak as to need someone to watch over your shoulder, may God bless you with strength. By the way, who is watching your watcher? You? But, you're weak and need a watcher. Wow... what a mess.
4His_glory
New Member
I accept your apology, DeaconLew, it is very gracious of you to apologize.
I find it hard to declare courtship a biblical principle. There are ceartainly things we can learn from the OT cultural practices, but we must be careful to realize that they are exactally that- cultural practices, not direct commands for the Christian.
I am glad the two couples you know have had things work out for them, but I dozens of Christian couples who dated each other, and glorified God in their relationship.
Because a couple dates, does not mean that their relationship is starting out bad.
Personally, I made it my descision that when I entered into a dating relationship it was with marriage in mind. Because of that I did not "date around", I had many female freinds that I socialized with in group settings, but when I finally met my wife; after much prayer, I began dating her. My wife was the ony person I ever dated.
I find it hard to declare courtship a biblical principle. There are ceartainly things we can learn from the OT cultural practices, but we must be careful to realize that they are exactally that- cultural practices, not direct commands for the Christian.
I am glad the two couples you know have had things work out for them, but I dozens of Christian couples who dated each other, and glorified God in their relationship.
Because a couple dates, does not mean that their relationship is starting out bad.
Personally, I made it my descision that when I entered into a dating relationship it was with marriage in mind. Because of that I did not "date around", I had many female freinds that I socialized with in group settings, but when I finally met my wife; after much prayer, I began dating her. My wife was the ony person I ever dated.
James_Newman
New Member
It's not about needing a watcher, it is about protecting your testimony. The world knows what they do behind closed doors, why should they believe we are any different? You have a duty to abstain from every appearance of evil.
Just because a man and a woman go out on a date, that doesn't mean that there's anything "evil" going on. If the world wants to think so, that's their problem, not mine. God is my judge, not them. The world dreams-up all kinds of false things to accuse us of, I don't worry about it. I know that I'm doing nothing wrong. Perhaps when "the world" sees that Christians are not perfect, just saved, maybe they'll reconsider what they've been thinking about us. Legalism and a domineering, holier than thou attitude turns more people AWAY from Christ than real people with real attitudes. There's nothing wrong with dating. Sorry friend.
James_Newman
New Member
You are entitled to your opinion. In the end, only one opinion will matter, and God has already given it. It is up to us to study and figure out what it is.
1Ti 5:14 I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.
I don't see anything in there about dating. As for the adversary speaking reproachfully, the adversary will make things up if not given occasion, but we still have the command not to give the occasion. We can't eschew holiness for fear of 'turning off' the unsaved.
1Ti 5:14 I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.
I don't see anything in there about dating. As for the adversary speaking reproachfully, the adversary will make things up if not given occasion, but we still have the command not to give the occasion. We can't eschew holiness for fear of 'turning off' the unsaved.
James_Newman
New Member
Amen
What say me? Phariseeism !!! If you have a problem with people dating, you should look into your own heart and find out why. I have no problem with a man and a woman going out on dates. How are we supposed to find a mate with with to raise up godly children, to fill our quivers with the arrows that we are supposed to shoot out into the world? What is wrong here is some people know that they have a lust problem and want to transfer that to others to make themselves feel better. Phariseeism !!! I suppose we are to send out one of our servants to stand by the well and see which woman draws water for the servant and his livestock huh? That's biblical right? You ASSUME that everyone who dates commits fornication. That is simply not the case. Thank you for the "example" of biblical dating in Proverbs 7. If that is your example, then you just shot yourself in the foot friend. </font>[/QUOTE]Are you suggesting that I have a lust problem?
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
What say ye?
-DeaconLew
I was am not saying that courtship is a biblical principal, but rather the principles of courtship are biblical. I am saying that courtship is sanctioned by scripture.
As far as the culture is concerned, the bible is not a book full of nice stories. We are commanded in the new testiment to apply the principles of the OT in our lives.
1Co 10:6 ¶ Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
The problem with dating is not that everyone who does it fornicates. The problem is that dating is designed for fornication. Unrestrained, unaccountable, unsupervised, unshapperoned(sp) getting together of men and women. It makes for an appearance of evil at best and leads to fornication at worse. I ask this; if dating and courtship are, essentially, the same, why don't more people say they are doing it (courting)?
Can you tell me if you read all that my long post had to say? Did you go and read the article the person wrote in the link that I provided? I ask you to read the article and let me know what you think. You can PM me.
I have two daughters. I was a knukle headed kid growing up doing and living a loosly restrained life. I do not want my daughters to get involved with anyone that was like me. How can I biblically prevent that from happening? Insisting that any relationship (only one) she is in (when she is about 30 or 40
With the rising divorce rate, unfaithful spouses and the like, I have a responsibility before God to ensure that my daughters marry the person that God has for them. On a side note, I think marriage is eternal (in this life). I do not think there are any reasons what so ever that a couple can get married and divorced and remarried, except to each other. That is why dating is so dangerous in my opinion, and I think also that I have the spirit of God.
What say ye?
-DeaconLew
4His_glory
New Member
I was am not saying that courtship is a biblical principal, but rather the principles of courtship are biblical. I am saying that courtship is sanctioned by scripture.
As far as the culture is concerned, the bible is not a book full of nice stories. We are commanded in the new testiment to apply the principles of the OT in our lives.
1Co 10:6 ¶ Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
The problem with dating is not that everyone who does it fornicates. The problem is that dating is designed for fornication. Unrestrained, unaccountable, unsupervised, unshapperoned(sp) getting together of men and women. It makes for an appearance of evil at best and leads to fornication at worse. I ask this; if dating and courtship are, essentially, the same, why don't more people say they are doing it (courting)?
Can you tell me if you read all that my long post had to say? Did you go and read the article the person wrote in the link that I provided? I ask you to read the article and let me know what you think. You can PM me.
I have two daughters. I was a knukle headed kid growing up doing and living a loosly restrained life. I do not want my daughters to get involved with anyone that was like me. How can I biblically prevent that from happening? Insisting that any relationship (only one) she is in (when she is about 30 or 40
With the rising divorce rate, unfaithful spouses and the like, I have a responsibility before God to ensure that my daughters marry the person that God has for them. On a side note, I think marriage is eternal (in this life). I do not think there are any reasons what so ever that a couple can get married and divorced and remarried, except to each other. That is why dating is so dangerous in my opinion, and I think also that I have the spirit of God.
What say ye?
-DeaconLew </font>[/QUOTE]You are right the Bible is not a book full of nice stories and there are things for us to understand and learn from in the OT, however, we need to do so with the proper hermenutics, and understand that the OT was a different covenant, that people lived in a different time and culture, and not everything mentioned in the OT is to be taken as principle for the NT believer to live by.
Dating was not designed for fornication, it was not the idea of one person or a group of people, but is a cultural phenomenon. We don't use the word courting anymore, becuase the word dating has replaced it.
You desire to protect your daughters is commendable, more fathers need to show that kind of love. I have two little boys (far from getting married) and I wish that they have God's best in their life as well, but I realize that as I parent I can only do so much to steer them in the way they should go. They are individuals with a will, and sometimes that will leads them astray.
I think that as Christians we need to have wise dating/courtship practices. It is good to have parents involved; that is if they are beleivers, and they give their blessing to a relationship.
It is good to keep ourselves accountable, and watch where we spend time, how much we spend, and at what time of day it is. I have heard of courtships like you speak of leading to disaster, because men are men and women are women, and sometimes they given in to flesh.
Well, that's a right fine piece of scripture. And it's true! I know it's true because God had it included in the bible. But, who are you applying it to? Only me? Or to both of us? And if it applies to both of us, how do you know that YOU aren't the one who has been deceived?
There are a couple of good, old sayings that apply here. "The guilty conscience speaks for itself" and "Methinks you protest too much".
Friend, there is nothing wrong with two people sharing a meal and some conversation. If you ASSUME that there's something evil going on without any evidence in any particular case, what does that say about your heart?
If you want to run for pope, that's a good campaign to start on. You and previous popes differ with Jesus and Paul on this matter. </font>[/QUOTE]My statement was a side topic, but where does Paul and Jesus condon marriage and divorce and remarriage and divorce and remarriage and divorce and remarriage and divorce and remarriage and divorce and remarriage and divorce and remarriage and divorce and remarriage and divorce and remarriage and divorce and remarriage and divorce and remarriage and divorce and remarriage and divorce and remarriage and divorce and remarriage and divorce and remarriage and divorce... you get the idea.
What say ye?
-DeaconLew
Well, that's a right fine piece of scripture. And it's true! I know it's true because God had it included in the bible. But, who are you applying it to? Only me? Or to both of us? And if it applies to both of us, how do you know that YOU aren't the one who has been deceived?
There are a couple of good, old sayings that apply here. "The guilty conscience speaks for itself" and "Methinks you protest too much".
Friend, there is nothing wrong with two people sharing a meal and some conversation. If you ASSUME that there's something evil going on without any evidence in any particular case, what does that say about your heart? </font>[/QUOTE]Taking your statement as a statement of fact, then it applies to you.
You are obviously not protesting my protesting are you? Evidently your conscience is not guilty because it is so quiet. The simple fact is you *may* have not even read any of my posts, you have just been waiting for your turn to speak. Now it's time for you to read what I have written (not just this one) Paul said "till I come give attendance to reading..." maybe you never read that. Again if you take the time to read, all I am simply saying is dating is dangerous and the way it is interpreted by moden culture proves it. All the whining you and others do does not change that fact.
The reason the world is in the state that it is in is because believers have fallen asleep. Jesus was asked "from whence came these tares?" His response "while men slept an enemy came." You and I are the reason for the proliferation of sin in our local communities and the world. In areas that have liberty (America) believers are "settled on their lees" watching Late night with David Letterman and Oprah Winfrey, getting their hog slop morals from Hellywood. Finding any superficial, fleshly, devilish argument they can for why they are not any more holy. I guess you are protesting my stand for holiness because you are not (your own argument).
It is time for believers to start living like there is a God in heaven that will be coming again real soon to judge them for how they lived their lives. He may come before I finish typing this reply or before you finish reading it, if you will read it at all.
What say ye?
-DeaconLew
It is true that men and women are, but that is no excuse for them to yield to the flesh (Romans 6). I think I have proven that the usage for date and not court is more than just cultural. Dating is what everyone does. There is no moral boundary within it of itself. This is what I mean when I say it leads to fornication. The only reason why believers who date that do not fornicate, don't fornicate, is not because dating is structure so that it would be impossible, but that they are constrained by their personal convictions. Courting on the other hand is good, because there is a real devil, and at a moment of weakness, were it not for the additional accountability of stronger believers with you, one would fall.
Looking at the ads for the dating services, I see folks holding hands, and hugging each other intimately. If they are dating why are they touching each other, clearly outside of scripture (1Cor 7)? I think it is obvious that dating is more sinful than sanctified.
What say ye?
-DeaconLew
I've read every word your wrote and I wholly reject your premise that dating is dangerous. If you want to go through life with that kind of attitude toward people, that's your business. You go ahead and stand there and say "Thank you God that I'm not like these other people...". I'll continue to say, "God be merciful to me, a sinner" and thank Him that I have to freedom to enjoy the experience of this physical existance that He gave me.
Holiness is a requirement to see the Lord...
Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
You can continue to say "be merciful to me..." but you better be living a merciful life. Excuses for not being all you can in Christ will not be accepted at the JSOC.
What say ye?
-DeaconLew
Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
You can continue to say "be merciful to me..." but you better be living a merciful life. Excuses for not being all you can in Christ will not be accepted at the JSOC.
What say ye?
-DeaconLew
Phariseeism. You lay burdens on men that they can hardly carry. The Lord's yoke is light.
All who call upon the name of the Lord WILL be saved.
All that the Father has given Him, He will retain and none can take out of His hand.
There is now NO condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Salvation is by the grace of God, it is not of WORKS lest men should boast.
Why should God let me into Heaven? I trust in the work that Jesus did on the cross, not in my own holiness. I'm not good enough to make it on my own merit, He HAS to save me. Nobody is going to have anything to say the the Judgment seat of Christ except Thank You Lord for being merciful to me. Everybody is going to have works that get burned up and they will be saved but as through the fire.
You clean the outside of the cup and dish... (Matthew 23:25)
All who call upon the name of the Lord WILL be saved.
All that the Father has given Him, He will retain and none can take out of His hand.
There is now NO condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Salvation is by the grace of God, it is not of WORKS lest men should boast.
Why should God let me into Heaven? I trust in the work that Jesus did on the cross, not in my own holiness. I'm not good enough to make it on my own merit, He HAS to save me. Nobody is going to have anything to say the the Judgment seat of Christ except Thank You Lord for being merciful to me. Everybody is going to have works that get burned up and they will be saved but as through the fire.
You clean the outside of the cup and dish... (Matthew 23:25)