In what sense did Christ die for all sinners?

percho · Thursday at 9:41 AM

Paleouss said:
Greetings again to all in this thread. Thank you for sharpening me and correcting me when you think it is needed.

I thought, to help shed light on the OP, I might zoom out and provide an overall structure to the assertion that one of the purposes of the Incarnation was to destroy the power of sin.

(Rom 8:3 NKJV) 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God [did] by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,

So according to Rom 8:3, what the "law could not do" means that the law was part of God's stratagem to do something. But it was never intended to be the only tool. So what the law could not do, God sent His Son to do. So what was His Son sent to do that the law could not? He was sent to "condemn sin" (Rom 8:3). But didn't the law condemn sin?

Justice, through the law, rightly conquers the sinner and puts the sinner under the foot of God. But the power and effects of sin have not been conquered by justice, only the sinner has been put under the foot of God the Son through the law. The power of sin and its effects goes unchecked, for sin brings death and justice ensures death; sin brings alienation and justice seals that alienation; justice in some ways even works in accordance with the outcomes to which sin aspires (1Cor 15:56), i.e., the condemnation and penalty placed upon mankind. As the Scriptures say, "the strength of sin is the law" (1Cor 15:56).

God’s decree to give the written law was “because of transgressions” (Gal 3:19). These transgressions ran rampant, causing alienation and bringing death (Rom 5:14) and were left unchecked because “sin is the transgression of the law” (1John 3:4) but “where no law is, [there is] no transgression” (Rom 5:14 KJV), and “sin is not imputed when there is no law” (Rom 5:13).

The salvo of God’s laws to declare the battle lines and to put all things under His feet, starts with the law that confines and defines transgression, through the “knowledge of sin” (Rom 3:20, Rom 7:7); it spotlights sin, so in the light the “offense might abound” (Rom 5:20); therefore being a “tutor” (Gal 3:24), a guide toward the object of this world’s purposeful end, which is the Son of God.

The law therefore condemns the sinner so that “all the world may become guilty before God” (Rom 3:19, Gal 3:11). This is a step in the reconciliation between God and mankind. But where the law was strong accounting for the sinner, the law is weak in accounting for sin. But within God's stratagem, where the law is weak to account for the power of sin, God sent “His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin” (Rom 8:3), and by the decree of the Incarnation, through His blood and resurrection, He conquered sin in the flesh (Rom 8:3) where the law could not (Rom 8:3).

In this sense, Christ is the completion of the law. The final nail in the stratagem to "destroy the works of the devil" (1John 3:8). In which John says is one reason why the "Son of God was manifested".

Peace to your brothers

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

From before the creation of Adam was it the intent of God [the Father] to do the above in bold through Adam? Consider:

because of this, even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin; for till law sin was in the world: and sin is not reckoned when there is not law; but the death did reign from Adam till Moses, even upon those not having sinned in the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is a type of him who is coming. Rom 5:12-14

Why was Adam created of the flesh? Was it because the devil did sin from the beginning and needed to be destroyed?

Just some thoughts I have had.

Van · Thursday at 9:47 AM

Paleouss said:
Within this post I would like to present a logical argument for the fact that one purpose of the death of Christ was to die for the sins of all men, everywhere. This logical argument revolves around two points. (This is not an augment for Universalism)

The Incarnation, death, and resurrection of God the Son was for multiple purposes.

One of those purposes was the work of the Son of God to put all things under His foot (1Cor 15:24-28, Heb 2:8, 1John 3:8, Phil 2:10, 1Pet 3:22).

SNIP

To properly say the power of sin in world (W) is conquered, then there can be no more power of sin and its grip in world (W), which include (a), (b), (c) and (d).

SNIP

Any theological conclusion that the power of sin has only been selectively conquered, leaving the power of sin to still have its dominion, is not congruent with the Scripture or biblical reasoning that says the Son of God will put all things under His foot. It therefore follows that one purpose of the Son of God in the Incarnation was to conquer the power and grip of sin on all mankind so that all things are put under His foot.

Keep seeking God's truth as if it were hidden treasure (Prov 2)

Hi Paleouss,

Great topic. First I agree with your conclusion, Christ died as a ransom for all people, those to be saved and those never to be saved.

I did not come to this conclusion by your path of reasoning, but based my conclusion on 2 Peter 2:1, the Master "bought" those heading for swift destruction. I also used, as you may have alluded, to 1 John 2:2, Christ became the means of reconciliation, not only for us, but for the whole of humanity.

Where we may part company is what was accomplished by Christ dying for the whole of humanity. My view, which I assert is the biblical view, is that Christ's sacrifice provides the means of reconciliation for the lost. If a lost person puts their faith in Him, as determined by God when and if He credits that faith as righteousness, then the person's human spirit is transferred into Christ's spiritual body, undergoes the washing of regeneration, and is therefore made alive together with Christ.

God bless,

Van

DaveXR650 · Thursday at 9:56 AM

Paleouss said:
With the "power" of sin put under the Son of God's foot, the slavery to sin might be broken if one only believes and has faith. But not all will. In fact, narrow is the gate and few there be that enter it. Sad...but true.

I think that the power of sin is that when man sinned what he did amounted to a cosmic rebellion that changed everything on earth. God could have destroyed Satan immediately, and all men and been just in doing so. But in a way, Satan had achieved something over God in that God could not justly act against Satan without condemning man also. Thus you have Satan being referred to as the god of this world, and in Job you have him boldly coming into God's presence with the other angels. He is free to tempt, to rule kingdoms, and to accuse men. I think there is an aspect of the atonement where Jesus, by living a sinless life, by dying for our sins, and by rising again completely overthrew the way things had been. It set up the idea that now man can once again truly be right with God, God can forgive and still be just without any accusation that he had overlooked the fulfilling of his law or not taking notice of sin. So now there is a period of time where those who are to be saved are being brought in. After that, God can unleash on Satan, and all who still at last are found to follow him.

I think those themes are recurrent in the Bible and at the death of Christ the kingdom of darkness was dealt a fatal blow. That's the cosmic aspect I was talking about. I'm not in any way meaning to neglect the individual aspect of the atonement whereby Christ paid the penalty for your sin not only legally but as a propitiation of God's wrath against sin.

Van · Thursday at 9:57 AM

1 John 2:2 NASB
and He Himself is the means of reconciliation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole of humanity.

This version reflects the footnoted meaning of propitiation, deletes the added clarification in italics, and corrects the translation from world to humanity for clarity.

Note that scripture says Christ provides the means of reconciliation, rather than Christ reconciled anyone.

Only when a lost person is transferred spiritually into Christ is the person reconciled, made "at one" with God. So Christ's death did not make anyone "at one" with God, but when a lost person is transferred into Christ, that is when they are made "at one" with God.

JesusFan · Thursday at 3:05 PM

Paleouss said:
Hello JesusFan. Thank you for your critique. Much appreciated

I agree...and I do not intent this.

I also agree.. and I do not intend this either.

Peace brother

Interesting was that Barth did seem to hold to Universalism, but could never quite get to saying that was where his theology ended

Paleouss · Friday at 7:27 AM

DaveXR650 said:
God could have destroyed Satan immediately, and all men and been just in doing so

Greetings again Dave.

I agree. God could have destroyed Satan (or even Adam and Eve) immediately.

DaveXR650 said:
But in a way, Satan had achieved something over God in that God could not justly act against Satan without condemning man also.

Here I'm not sure I agree. I'd have to hear more to know for sure.

DaveXR650 said:
Thus you have Satan being referred to as the god of this world, and in Job you have him boldly coming into God's presence with the other angels. He is free to tempt, to rule kingdoms, and to accuse men.

Yes.

DaveXR650 said:
I think there is an aspect of the atonement where Jesus, by living a sinless life, by dying for our sins, and by rising again completely overthrew the way things had been.

I agree. The only change I would make is in the last part of the sentence. I would end the thought with "...by rising again completely overthrew the way things 'had become'. I do realize that your thought might suggest the consequences of the law. But the only law at the point of Adams sin was the law of 'thou shalt not eat'.

DaveXR650 said:
It set up the idea that now man can once again truly be right with God, God can forgive and still be just without any accusation that he had overlooked the fulfilling of his law or not taking notice of sin.

Yes, and...exactly!

DaveXR650 said:
I think those themes are recurrent in the Bible and at the death of Christ the kingdom of darkness was dealt a fatal blow. That's the cosmic aspect I was talking about. I'm not in any way meaning to neglect the individual aspect of the atonement whereby Christ paid the penalty for your sin not only legally but as a propitiation of God's wrath against sin.

Yes. Well said.

Peace to you brother

Paleouss · Friday at 7:48 AM

Van said:
Where we may part company is what was accomplished by Christ dying for the whole of humanity. My view, which I assert is the biblical view, is that Christ's sacrifice provides the means of reconciliation for the lost.

Greetings Van. Thank you for your thoughts and wisdom.

I agree. Sticking to my analysis in the OP (not that I'm denying yours), one of Christ's purposes was to put all things under His foot so that His death, the dying for the whole of humanity (again, one purpose), provides a means of reconciliation for the lost. In other words, there are/were stratagems that God the Father planned that were implemented to 'pave the way' to reconciliation for mankind, especially for those that believe. These stratagems, found in scripture, are all consistent with the characteristics of God and who God is, and include such things as the conquering of sin and death by the blood and death of Jesus Christ.

Peace to you brother

Paleouss · Friday at 7:52 AM

JesusFan said:
Interesting was that Barth did seem to hold to Universalism, but could never quite get to saying that was where his theology ended

Greetings JesusFan. Always good to see your posts.

I think Barth did some good analysis. Although, like every theologian, I don't think he got it all right. The topic of Universalism being one I think he got wrong. There are other points also I disagree with Barth. But I'll refrain.

Peace to you brother

Paleouss · Friday at 8:35 AM

percho said:
Why was Adam created of the flesh? Was it because the devil did sin from the beginning and needed to be destroyed?

Greetings percho. I hope your week has been a good one.

Your ending question seems to be constructed in a way that implies (or logically ends with) the notion that the purpose for creating this world was for the devil (to destroy him). Something I don't think is found is scripture.

The Bible explicitly tells us for whom this world is created for. All that was created, all that is, and all that will be, is made “for Him” (Col 1:16, Rom 11:36, Heb 2:10). This "for Him" is God the Son. As Augustine wrote, “Thou hast formed us for Thyself, and our hearts are restless till they find rest in Thee.”

Therefore, the first intention and object of final intended end of this world is the Son to God... and the devil is simply a piece in the larger stratagem of God.

Saying all that, I do think Scripture tells us that one of the purposes of the Incarnation was to "destroy the works of the devil" (1John 3:8).

Hope this helps.
Peace to you brother

Van · Friday at 9:59 AM

Paleouss said:
Greetings Van. Thank you for your thoughts and wisdom.

I agree. Sticking to my analysis in the OP (not that I'm denying yours), one of Christ's purposes was to put all things under His foot so that His death, the dying for the whole of humanity (again, one purpose), provides a means of reconciliation for the lost. In other words, there are/were stratagems that God the Father planned that were implemented to 'pave the way' to reconciliation for mankind, especially for those that believe. These stratagems, found in scripture, are all consistent with the characteristics of God and who God is, and include such things as the conquering of sin and death by the blood and death of Jesus Christ.

Peace to you brother

I agree, God took action to "pave the way" for belief, such as His "forerunner" (John the Baptist) and His signs ans wonders to facilitate belief, especially Christ rising from the dead in bodily form and interacting with many for about 40 days!

Alan Dale Gross · Friday at 12:46 PM

"The Extent of the Atonement".

"God imposed his wrath due unto, and Christ underwent the pains of hell for, either:

1. "All the sins of all men,

2. "All the sins of some men,

or 3. "Some of the sins of all men.
In which case it may be said:

a. "That if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so none are saved.

b. "That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth.

c. "But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?

"You will say, Because of unbelief; they will not believe.

"But this unbelief, is it a sin or is it not? If not, why should they be
unpunished for it?

"If it be, then Christ underwent the punishment due to it or not.

"If he did, why must that hinder, more than their

ther for which he died, from partaking of the fruit of his death?

"If he did not, then he did not die for all their sins."

John Owen.

(Lewis Sperry Chafer, “Systematic Theology”, Vol. III. P. 198., 1957, Dallas Seminary Press, Dallas, Texas)

JesusFan · Friday at 1:45 PM

Van said:
Hi Paleouss,

Great topic. First I agree with your conclusion, Christ died as a ransom for all people, those to be saved and those never to be saved.

I did not come to this conclusion by your path of reasoning, but based my conclusion on 2 Peter 2:1, the Master "bought" those heading for swift destruction. I also used, as you may have alluded, to 1 John 2:2, Christ became the means of reconciliation, not only for us, but for the whole of humanity.

Where we may part company is what was accomplished by Christ dying for the whole of humanity. My view, which I assert is the biblical view, is that Christ's sacrifice provides the means of reconciliation for the lost. If a lost person puts their faith in Him, as determined by God when and if He credits that faith as righteousness, then the person's human spirit is transferred into Christ's spiritual body, undergoes the washing of regeneration, and is therefore made alive together with Christ.

God bless,

Van

Still holding to your open Theism god here, eh?

JesusFan · Friday at 1:47 PM

Van said:
1 John 2:2 NASB
and He Himself is the means of reconciliation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole of humanity.

This version reflects the footnoted meaning of propitiation, deletes the added clarification in italics, and corrects the translation from world to humanity for clarity.

Note that scripture says Christ provides the means of reconciliation, rather than Christ reconciled anyone.

Only when a lost person is transferred spiritually into Christ is the person reconciled, made "at one" with God. So Christ's death did not make anyone "at one" with God, but when a lost person is transferred into Christ, that is when they are made "at one" with God.

Those saved ones are the sinners chosen and elected out before hand before foundation of the world

JesusFan · Friday at 1:51 PM

Paleouss said:
Greetings JesusFan. Always good to see your posts.

I think Barth did some good analysis. Although, like every theologian, I don't think he got it all right. The topic of Universalism being one I think he got wrong. There are other points also I disagree with Barth. But I'll refrain.

Peace to you brother

Barth seemed to be the "poster boy" for theology for quite a while, but seemed to me to not being reformed, and his take does and will lead to eventual Universalism, and He also had issues with infallible bible, ending up with bible becoming the word of God to us, but not actual being such until we read and believe it

JesusFan · Friday at 1:52 PM

Van said:
I agree, God took action to "pave the way" for belief, such as His "forerunner" (John the Baptist) and His signs ans wonders to facilitate belief, especially Christ rising from the dead in bodily form and interacting with many for about 40 days!

God grants to His own saving faith, as its part of the overall "gift of salvation" package the elect in Christ

Van · Friday at 3:10 PM

JesusFan said:
Still holding to your open Theism god here, eh?

Note this effort to derail discussion of scripture. Calvinism embraces Open Theism, but that is a subject for another thread.

Van · Friday at 3:13 PM

JesusFan said:
God grants to His own saving faith, as its part of the overall "gift of salvation" package the elect in Christ

Note this effort to derail discussion of scripture, Calvinism falsely claims the lost cannot "have faith in the truth." Scripture, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says the lost are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth.

JesusFan · Friday at 3:27 PM

Van said:
Note this effort to derail discussion of scripture, Calvinism falsely claims the lost cannot "have faith in the truth." Scripture, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says the lost are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth.

Where did that saving faith come from, did spiritually dead sinners somehow will themselves alive enough to produce it then?

JesusFan · Friday at 3:28 PM

Van said:
Note this effort to derail discussion of scripture. Calvinism embraces Open Theism, but that is a subject for another thread.

There are NO Calvinists who see God as being Open Theism, as we all hold to God being all knowing just as the Bible describes him as being, including having Omniscience!

Van · Friday at 4:59 PM

JesusFan said:
Where did that saving faith come from, did spiritually dead sinners somehow will themselves alive enough to produce it then?

Scripture tells those where saving faith comes from. And it does not say from "irresistible grace" the fiction of Calvinism.

You must have faith like Abraham's faith.

In what sense did Christ die for all sinners?

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