Limited Atonement #1: Whom the Father Elects, the Son Redeems, and the Holy Ghost Sanctifies.

"Universal redemption, or, that Christ died for all men, cannot be
a Gospel truth, because of the following arguments and reasons.

"1. God the Father’s Election, God the Son’s Redemption, and
God the Holy Ghost’s Sanctification, must all be of Equal Extent and
Latitude; but universal redemption, in the Arminian sense of it,
makes these unequal.

This is clear; for as the Father, Word, and Spirit are One in
Essence, so are they One in Willing, Working, and Witnessing the
Redemption of sinners.

"As there are Three that bear witness on earth,
the Spirit, the water, and the blood; so there are Three which Bear
Record in Heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; “and
these Three agree in one” (1Jo 5:6,8).

"Whom the Father Elects, the Son Redeems, and the Holy Ghost Sanctifies.

"If then there be a universal redemption there must be a universal election, and a
universal sanctification also, and so, by consequence, a universal salvation."

Alan's Note: As everyone must universally acknowledge.

"That the Son Redeems no more than the Father Elects is
evident from two scriptures. The first is John 5:23, which declares
the Son must be Honoured as Equal with the Father; but, to say that
the Son Redeemed all, and the Father Elected but few, is to give
greater Honour to the One than to the Other, and to make an
inequality in Their Operations. The second scripture is John 17:9,10:
“All Thine are Mine and all Mine are Thine,” etc.

"They were the Father’s by electing love, and they became the Son’s by gift and
redemption: “Thine they were, and Thou gavest them Me” (John
17:6). Christ redeems only those whom the Father gave unto Him.
Hence God’s “book of life” wherein the number of the elect is
recorded, is called also the “Lamb’s book of life;” intimating that
the number of those elected by the Father is commensurate with
those redeemed by the Son.

"That Christ redeems no greater number than the Spirit sanctifies
is evident from 1Jo 5:6,7.

"Thus it is most apparent that all the Three Persons in the Trinity
have One Object and One Design of Love.

"They are Equal in Essence, Equal in Honour, and Equal in Operation."

From: An Antidote Against Arminianism
or
A Treatise to Enervate and Confute All The Five Points of It;
Viz.: — Predestination Grounded upon Man’s Foreseen Works —
Universal Redemption —
Sufficient Grace in All —
The Power of Man’s Free-will in Conversion —
The Possibility of true Saints Falling away Totally and Finally.
by Christopher Ness 1621-1705

With Extracts from Dr. John Gill, Dr. Isaac Watts, Augustus Toplady,
John Newton, J. Hart, etc.
Recommended by Dr. John Owen, and Published for Public Good.

Alan Dale Gross said:

"Universal redemption, or, that Christ died for all men, cannot be
a Gospel truth, because of the following arguments and reasons.

"1. God the Father’s Election, God the Son’s Redemption, and
God the Holy Ghost’s Sanctification, must all be of Equal Extent and
Latitude; but universal redemption, in the Arminian sense of it,
makes these unequal.

This is clear; for as the Father, Word, and Spirit are One in
Essence, so are they One in Willing, Working, and Witnessing the
Redemption of sinners.

"As there are Three that bear witness on earth,
the Spirit, the water, and the blood; so there are Three which Bear
Record in Heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; “and
these Three agree in one” (1Jo 5:6,8).

"Whom the Father Elects, the Son Redeems, and the Holy Ghost Sanctifies.

"If then there be a universal redemption there must be a universal election, and a
universal sanctification also, and so, by consequence, a universal salvation."

Alan's Note: As everyone must universally acknowledge.

"That the Son Redeems no more than the Father Elects is
evident from two scriptures. The first is John 5:23, which declares
the Son must be Honoured as Equal with the Father; but, to say that
the Son Redeemed all, and the Father Elected but few, is to give
greater Honour to the One than to the Other, and to make an
inequality in Their Operations. The second scripture is John 17:9,10:
“All Thine are Mine and all Mine are Thine,” etc.

"They were the Father’s by electing love, and they became the Son’s by gift and
redemption: “Thine they were, and Thou gavest them Me” (John
17:6). Christ redeems only those whom the Father gave unto Him.
Hence God’s “book of life” wherein the number of the elect is
recorded, is called also the “Lamb’s book of life;” intimating that
the number of those elected by the Father is commensurate with
those redeemed by the Son.

"That Christ redeems no greater number than the Spirit sanctifies
is evident from 1Jo 5:6,7.

"Thus it is most apparent that all the Three Persons in the Trinity
have One Object and One Design of Love.

"They are Equal in Essence, Equal in Honour, and Equal in Operation."

From: An Antidote Against Arminianism
or
A Treatise to Enervate and Confute All The Five Points of It;
Viz.: — Predestination Grounded upon Man’s Foreseen Works —
Universal Redemption —
Sufficient Grace in All —
The Power of Man’s Free-will in Conversion —
The Possibility of true Saints Falling away Totally and Finally.
by Christopher Ness 1621-1705

With Extracts from Dr. John Gill, Dr. Isaac Watts, Augustus Toplady,
John Newton, J. Hart, etc.
Recommended by Dr. John Owen, and Published for Public Good.

Click to expand...

This is Calvinist reasoning based on election!! What does the Scripture say?

2 Cor. 5:14-15

"For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again."

Christ died for all men because all men were dead in trespasses and sins.

Notice the bold, "that they which live" these are the ones that accepted Christ and were born again.

No one in hell can say that Christ did not die for them. He died for the whole world that was lost in trespass and sin.

John 3:16
For God so loved the WORLD (not a select number, but the whole world) that He gave....

Charlie24 said:

This is Calvinist reasoning based on election!!

Click to expand...

Pure Bible reasoning, which include the application of the rules of Interpretation
(which prove to always devastate non-Biblical human reasoning.)

This treatment by Gill concludes by noting the context;
"... the context explains the all of such who are in Christ,
"are New Creatures,
"are Reconciled to God,
"whose trespasses are not imputed to them,
"for whom Christ was made sin,
"and who are made the Righteousness of God in Him;

"which cannot be said of all men."

"that if one died for all, then were all dead"; or "seeing one died for all";

"for it is rather an assertion than a supposition, upon which the apostle reasons. The person designed, who died for all, is Jesus Christ, though not mentioned, and is to be supplied from the former clause. The Doctrine of Christ's dying for men was well known, so that there was no need to mention His Name; He is called "One", in distinction to the "all" He died for, and as exclusive of all others, He being Sufficient of Himself to answer the ends of His death;

"and therefore is to be looked unto, and believed on, alone for salvation, and Jesus is to have all the Glory of it. The manner of His dying is for, or in the Room and Stead of all;

"so that He died not merely as a Martyr, or by way of example, or only for their good, but as their Substitute, in their Room and Stead, having all the sins of His people upon Him, for which He Made Satisfaction; and this the Nature of His death shows, which was a Sacrifice, a Ransom, a Propitiation and Atonement.

"The persons for whom Christ died are all; not every individual of mankind, but all His people, all His sheep, all the saved members of His churches, or all the sons He, as the Great Captain of salvation, brings to Glory.

"Wherefore this text does not make for the Doctrine of General Redemption; for it should be observed, that it does not say that Christ died for "all men", but for "all";

"and so, agreeably to the Scriptures, may be understood of all the persons mentioned.

"Moreover, in the latter part of the text it is said,
that those for whom Christ died, for them He Rose Again;

"He died for no more, nor for others, than those for whom He Rose Again:
now those for whom He Rose Again, He Rose for their Justification;

"wherefore, if Christ Rose for the Justification of all men, all would be Justified,
or the End of Christ's Resurrection would not be answered;

"but all men are not, nor will they be Justified, some will be Condemned;

"hence it follows, that Christ did not Rise from the dead for all men, and consequently did not die for all men: besides, the "all" for whom Christ died, died with Him, and through His death are dead both to the law and sin;

"and He died for them, that they might live, not to themselves, but to Him;

"neither of which are true of all the individuals of mankind:
to which may be added, (again) that the context explains:
1. the all of such who are in Christ,
2. are New Creatures,
3. are Reconciled to God,
4. whose trespasses are not imputed to them,
5. for whom Christ was made sin,
6. and who are Made the Righteousness of God in Him;
which cannot be said of all men."

Charlie24 said:

What does the Scripture say?

Click to expand...

That's what the Scriptures say.

Charlie24 said:

John 3:16
For God so loved the WORLD (not a select number, but the whole world) that He gave...

Click to expand...

Speaking of what the Scriptures say, they don't say "the whole world".

That's a given.

Then, of any of number of places where the word "world" is used to describe "the Gentiles", God actually equates "the world" as meaning "the Gentiles", in Roman's 11:12.

Starting in vs 7, 'Israel' is who Paul is talking about when he says, Israel stumbled and fell, in vs 11, then where he says, "if the fall of them", in vs 12, that is also talking about Israel, of course;

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for;
but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

11 I say then, Have they (Israel) stumbled that they should fall?
God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles,
for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them (Israel) be the riches of the world,
and the diminishing of them (Israel) the riches of the Gentiles;
how much more their fulness?

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles,
I magnify mine office:

God defines the word "world" there in Romans 11:12, as referring to "the Gentiles".

When a word is used in the Bible, we can't just assume it means one certain thing that we think it might, since the Bible also quite plainly says, "love not the world".

John 3, in context, depicts that those in John 3:16, who were "whosoever" in the "world" that God so Loved, who came to Jesus in Salvation did so as the result of being "Wrought in God", which not everyone in the entire whole world was.

20 "For every one that doeth evil hateth the Light, neither cometh to the Light,
lest his deeds should be Reproved.

21 "But he that doeth Truth cometh to the Light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."

THE "WHOSOEVER" AND "THE WORLD", IN JOHN 3:16,
WERE WROUGHT IN GOD TO COME TO THE LIGHT OF THE TRUTH.

Alan Dale Gross said:

Pure Bible reasoning, which include the application of the rules of Interpretation
(which prove to always devastate non-Biblical human reasoning.)

This treatment by Gill concludes by noting the context;
"... the context explains the all of such who are in Christ,
"are New Creatures,
"are Reconciled to God,
"whose trespasses are not imputed to them,
"for whom Christ was made sin,
"and who are made the Righteousness of God in Him;

"which cannot be said of all men."

"that if one died for all, then were all dead"; or "seeing one died for all";

"for it is rather an assertion than a supposition, upon which the apostle reasons. The person designed, who died for all, is Jesus Christ, though not mentioned, and is to be supplied from the former clause. The Doctrine of Christ's dying for men was well known, so that there was no need to mention His Name; He is called "One", in distinction to the "all" He died for, and as exclusive of all others, He being Sufficient of Himself to answer the ends of His death;

"and therefore is to be looked unto, and believed on, alone for salvation, and Jesus is to have all the Glory of it. The manner of His dying is for, or in the Room and Stead of all;

"so that He died not merely as a Martyr, or by way of example, or only for their good, but as their Substitute, in their Room and Stead, having all the sins of His people upon Him, for which He Made Satisfaction; and this the Nature of His death shows, which was a Sacrifice, a Ransom, a Propitiation and Atonement.

"The persons for whom Christ died are all; not every individual of mankind, but all His people, all His sheep, all the saved members of His churches, or all the sons He, as the Great Captain of salvation, brings to Glory.

"Wherefore this text does not make for the Doctrine of General Redemption; for it should be observed, that it does not say that Christ died for "all men", but for "all";

"and so, agreeably to the Scriptures, may be understood of all the persons mentioned.

"Moreover, in the latter part of the text it is said,
that those for whom Christ died, for them He Rose Again;

"He died for no more, nor for others, than those for whom He Rose Again:
now those for whom He Rose Again, He Rose for their Justification;

"wherefore, if Christ Rose for the Justification of all men, all would be Justified,
or the End of Christ's Resurrection would not be answered;

"but all men are not, nor will they be Justified, some will be Condemned;

"hence it follows, that Christ did not Rise from the dead for all men, and consequently did not die for all men: besides, the "all" for whom Christ died, died with Him, and through His death are dead both to the law and sin;

"and He died for them, that they might live, not to themselves, but to Him;

"neither of which are true of all the individuals of mankind:
to which may be added, (again) that the context explains:
1. the all of such who are in Christ,
2. are New Creatures,
3. are Reconciled to God,
4. whose trespasses are not imputed to them,
5. for whom Christ was made sin,
6. and who are Made the Righteousness of God in Him;
which cannot be said of all men."



That's what the Scriptures say.



Speaking of what the Scriptures say, they don't say "the whole world".

That's a given.

Then, of any of number of places where the word "world" is used to describe "the Gentiles", God actually equates "the world" as meaning "the Gentiles", in Roman's 11:12.

Starting in vs 7, 'Israel' is who Paul is talking about when he says, Israel stumbled and fell, in vs 11, then where he says, "if the fall of them", in vs 12, that is also talking about Israel, of course;

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for;
but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

11 I say then, Have they (Israel) stumbled that they should fall?
God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles,
for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them (Israel) be the riches of the world,
and the diminishing of them (Israel) the riches of the Gentiles;
how much more their fulness?

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles,
I magnify mine office:

God defines the word "world" there in Romans 11:12, as referring to "the Gentiles".

When a word is used in the Bible, we can't just assume it means one certain thing that we think it might, since the Bible also quite plainly says, "love not the world".

John 3, in context, depicts that those in John 3:16, who were "whosoever" in the "world" that God so Loved, who came to Jesus in Salvation did so as the result of being "Wrought in God", which not everyone in the entire whole world was.

20 "For every one that doeth evil hateth the Light, neither cometh to the Light,
lest his deeds should be Reproved.

21 "But he that doeth Truth cometh to the Light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."

THE "WHOSOEVER" AND "THE WORLD", IN JOHN 3:16,
WERE WROUGHT IN GOD TO COME TO THE LIGHT OF THE TRUTH.

Click to expand...

Of course when Paul said, "He died for all" he actually meant "some."

And when John said, "For God so loved the world" He only loved some of the world.

God forbid that I should suggest that the great John Gill made up everything he said, turning the Scripture into a lie.

But Ol' John had a way with words didn't he, I'll give him that!

Charlie24 said:

Of course when Paul said, "He died for all" he actually meant "some."

Click to expand...

A simpleton, flippant quip in the flesh, without giving any serious consideration
to your own rule of what does the scripture say, is all you've got on a Baptist Bible Forum?

Charlie24 said:

And when John said, "For God so loved the world" He only loved some of the world.

Click to expand...

Another simpleton, flippant quip in the flesh, without giving any serious consideration
to your own rule of what does the scripture say, is all you've got on a Baptist Bible Forum?

Charlie24 said:

But Ol' John had a way with words didn't he, I'll give him that!

Click to expand...

I hope you don't die having never said anything, like you just didn't. And I hope you learn 'something' before then.

Alan Dale Gross said:

A simpleton, flippant quip in the flesh, without giving any serious consideration
to your own rule of what does the scripture say, is all you've got on a Baptist Bible Forum?


Another simpleton, flippant quip in the flesh, without giving any serious consideration
to your own rule of what does the scripture say, is all you've got on a Baptist Bible Forum?


I hope you don't die having never said anything, like you just didn't. And I hope you learn 'something' before then.

Click to expand...

Alan, my fried, we don't serve the same God! Not even close.

Charlie24 said:

Alan, my fried, we don't serve the same God! Not even close.

Click to expand...

After rereading this I can see where some wrong assumptions could be made.

I'm not doubting your salvation, if your faith is anchored in the finished work of Christ, you are a born-again believer.

I don't doubt tht of you at all!

I'm saying your perception of who God is, is worlds apart from mine.

Only two views of Calvinism/Reformed

If C/R is an error:

The reason most Christians reject it is because they have good discernment.

If C/R is true:

The ultimate reason most resist it is because God sovereignly and unchangeably decreed their resistance for His own glory

If C/R is true, then God has predestined most of His children to resist His truth so as to glorify Himself.

The idea that God unchangeably predestines His own children to reject His own truth for His own glory is so intuitively false that we don’t need to refute it. We just need to make sure that everyone understands that’s what C/R entails so they know to reject it. Dr. Leighton Flowers

Charlie24 said:

Alan, my fried, we don't serve the same God! Not even close.

Click to expand...

Correct.

Maybe, if we ever both take the Bible seriously.

Alan Dale Gross said:

Correct.

Maybe, if we ever both take the Bible seriously.

Click to expand...

I think we both take the Scripture very seriously!

We are just looking at it through differences lenses.

Charlie24 said:

After rereading this I can see where some wrong assumptions could be made.

I'm not doubting your salvation, if your faith is anchored in the finished work of Christ, you are a born-again believer.

I don't doubt tht of you at all!

I'm saying your perception of who God is, is worlds apart from mine.

Click to expand...

Of course, I understand perfectly how you were meaning what you said.

The fact remains that even as saved souls, it is possible to express hatred toward God when we sin and offend Him, as well as we can actually be actively worshiping Satan, if we hold an erroneous error and profess it to be true, so it's important to get the understanding from the 'Stuff' in the Book that God wants for us, in order to worship Him according to His Revealed Will.

Charlie24 said:

Of course when Paul said, "He died for all" he actually meant "some."

Click to expand...

Charlie24 said:

And when John said, "For God so loved the world" He only loved some of the world.

Click to expand...

Charlie24 said:

I think we both take the Scripture very seriously!

Click to expand...

I was talking about how, if we automatically think our first impulse, knee-jerk, reaction to what we assume that a passage HAS TO MEAN, like in those first two takes, is always going to being completely equal to what The Mind of God is, we might be simply self-deceived like all get out.

Alan Dale Gross said:

Of course, I understand perfectly how you were meaning what you said.

The fact remains that even as saved souls, it is possible to express hatred toward God when we sin and offend Him, as well as we can actually be actively worshiping Satan, if we hold an erroneous error and profess it to be true, so it's important to get the understanding from the 'Stuff' in the Book that God wants for us, in order to worship Him according to His Revealed Will.

Click to expand...

This difference between us covers the globe, and will not be settled until Christ settles it.

I'm of the persuasion that we should not ignore it, but discuss it trying to better the understand the opposite view.

That's where most of the confusion comes from, both side do not understand, as they should, the opposite view.

Alan Dale Gross said:

I was talking about how, if we automatically think our first impulse, knee-jerk, reaction to what we assume that a passage HAS TO MEAN, like in those first two takes, is always going to being completely equal to what The Mind of God is, we might be simply self-deceived like all get out.

Click to expand...

I didn't actually respond to what you were pointing at in my smug response to the Calvinist view, "He died for all."

To cut to the chase, it's silly that an educated man such as John Gill would assume "all" to be referring to a specified group when there is no indication whatsoever that is what Paul and John meant.

I'm not trying to insult the Calvinists, I think we should be able to discuss this without anger, even with the smug attitude from time to time.

Charlie24 said:

To cut to the chase, it's silly that an educated man such as John Gill would assume "all" to be referring to a specified group when there is no indication whatsoever that is what Paul and John meant.

Click to expand...

Unless you properly distinguish the difference between all without exception and all without distinction, you’re going to end up contradicting the scripture. You’ll either be forced to become a universalist, recognize it’s talking about the elect, or you’re going to arbitrarily say which you think it is. Educated men like John Gill have been able to identify these things.

TheOneWhoLives said:

Unless you properly distinguish the difference between all without exception and all without distinction, you’re going to end up contradicting the scripture. You’ll either be forced to become a universalist, recognize it’s talking about the elect, or you’re going to arbitrarily say which you think it is. Educated men like John Gill have been able to identify these things.

Click to expand...

Ok, let's look at the opposite view. It comes down to Calvinism vs Arminianism.

"And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again."

Paul says "He died for all." Then he says "that they which live."

The Calvinist will say He only died for "they which live," right?

We will say "they which live" are the ones who chose Christ, but still he died for all of mankind even though most rejected Him.

The Calvinists will do the same with Romans 5:8

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

"We" is the word here. Is "we" all the sinners on earth, or the select few?

It doesn't register in the slightest to me how the Calvinists can see a select group in this verse being picked out of all the sinners on earth.

But rather He died for all sinners with those who choose Christ as beneficiaries of the promise and those who reject could not capitalize on His death because of unbelief.

Charlie24 said:

"And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again."

Paul says "He died for all." Then he says "that they which live."

The Calvinist will say He only died for "they which live," right?

We will say "they which live" are the ones who chose Christ, but still he died for all of mankind even though most rejected Him.

Click to expand...

You're ignoring the next part. If Christ did die for all people, then all people will no longer be living unto themselves. Do you see the problem?

Charlie24 said:

The Calvinists will do the same with Romans 5:8

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

"We" is the word here. Is "we" all the sinners on earth, or the select few?

Click to expand...

Who is Paul writing to? The saved or the unsaved?

Romans 1:7 - To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints...

Charlie24 said:

It doesn't register in the slightest to me how the Calvinists can see a select group in this verse being picked out of all the sinners on earth.

Click to expand...

Because we don't want our logical conclusion to end up in universalism or a mishmash of contradiction.

Charlie24 said:

But rather He died for all sinners with those who choose Christ as beneficiaries of the promise and those who reject could not capitalize on His death because of unbelief.

Click to expand...

He either died for all men, some men or no men.

TheOneWhoLives said:

You're ignoring the next part. If Christ did die for all people, then all people will no longer be living unto themselves. Do you see the problem?

Click to expand...

Lets look at what the text actual says
2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died;
2Co 5:15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.

Christ died for all as the text says but you have misread the text haven't you. It does not say what you say it does. It is not ALL people it is those who live. Those who live are those that have trusted in Christ Jesus. You are reading your theological view into the text.

TheOneWhoLives said:

Who is Paul writing to? The saved or the unsaved?

Romans 1:7 - To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints...

Click to expand...

So are we to conclude that it is only the elect/chosen ones who never seek God {Rom 3:11} were the only sinners {Rom 5:8} since Paul was only writing to the saints in Rome.

TheOneWhoLives said:

Because we don't want our logical conclusion to end up in universalism or a mishmash of contradiction.

Click to expand...

Compare the verse under consideration with Isa 53:6
"All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all."
Which aligns well with a NT verse
1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

So the only mishmash we find is when people deny the clear word of God.

As for universalism well how does that happen when we are told that God only saves those that freely trust in Him.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

TheOneWhoLives said:

He either died for all men, some men or no men.

Click to expand...

The bible is clear that Christ died for all men
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

Rom 5:6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

You can either trust what the bible says or stick with your particular view.