Once Saved, Always Saved

David Lamb · Apr 9, 2025

Tenchi said:
There is, of course, nothing more forward-looking and sensible than the Gospel. And once God has drawn, convicted and enabled a change of mind concerning His Truth (Jn. 6:44; 16:8; 2 Ti. 2:25), an unsaved but prudent and reasonable man can most certainly choose to trust in Christ as his Savior and Lord, just as he's done concerning more mundane things. Even when there wasn't the invitation of the Gospel to which to respond, men who were not born-again were able to respond positively to God (Job, Noah, Daniel, Enoch, David, Cornelius, etc.) and were called "righteous," "good," God-fearing,"and so on, by Him. What more, then, the response of a unsaved "wise" man who has been illuminated to the truth of the Gospel by God? He is, it seems obvious to me, more likely to trust in Christ for his salvation than a man chronically in the habit of making foolish, short-sighted choices. In this, the sensible lost man does better - born, at least in part, of the habit of making wise choices - than the man who's formed in his life such momentum in choosing foolishly that he makes the same kind of choice regarding the Gospel. It's quite uncontroversial to recognize this, it seems to me.

But believing the gospel is not simply a matter of being forward-looking and sensible:

“But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1Co 2:14 NKJV)

Tenchi · Apr 9, 2025

David Lamb said:
But believing the gospel is not simply a matter of being forward-looking and sensible:

“But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1Co 2:14 NKJV)

Yes, I commented on this in my last post. Why do you reply here as though I didn't?

JesusFan · Apr 9, 2025

Tenchi said:
Okay. It's my equally firm belief that they were not - and could not have been - saved in anything like the post-Calvary, born-again sense. The blood of animals provided an imperfect atonement for the sins of OT people, sufficiently satisfying God's justice 'til the perfect Lamb of God would come to "take away the sin of the World" (Jn 1:29), his work there extending in all directions through time. See Hebrews 7-10.

John 7:37-39
37 Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink.
38 "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'"
39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Even the disciples upon whom Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit in John 20 had to be properly "baptized" into Christ by the Spirit in Acts 2 and thus truly "born-again." If they had been fully born-again by the Spirit, washed, regenerated and permanently indwelt by him (Tit. 3:5; He. 13:5; Ro. 8:9-14), prior to Christ's work on the cross, why did Christ need to die? If there was some other fully-justifying mechanism that was possible prior to his sacrifice at Calvary, which is what is implicitly asserted by the claim that OT folk were "born anew," why proceed to the awful means of the cross to achieve the same thing this mechanism does? Why have the OT sacrificial system, if a post-Calvary, new covenant state of spiritual regeneration could be obtained that does away with that system?

The Apostles were not "actually saved/born again" until on the Day of Pentecost, as that was the great event that brought the Church on earth, and had the indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit in all redeemed then

JesusFan · Apr 9, 2025

Tenchi said:
There is, of course, nothing more forward-looking and sensible than the Gospel. And once God has drawn, convicted and enabled a change of mind concerning His Truth (Jn. 6:44; 16:8; 2 Ti. 2:25), an unsaved but prudent and reasonable man can most certainly choose to trust in Christ as his Savior and Lord, just as he's done concerning more mundane things. Even when there wasn't the invitation of the Gospel to which to respond, men who were not born-again were able to respond positively to God (Job, Noah, Daniel, Enoch, David, Cornelius, etc.) and were called "righteous," "good," God-fearing,"and so on, by Him. What more, then, the response of a unsaved "wise" man who has been illuminated to the truth of the Gospel by God? He is, it seems obvious to me, more likely to trust in Christ for his salvation than a man chronically in the habit of making foolish, short-sighted choices. In this, the sensible lost man does better - born, at least in part, of the habit of making wise choices - than the man who's formed in his life such momentum in choosing foolishly that he makes the same kind of choice regarding the Gospel. It's quite uncontroversial to recognize this, it seems to me.

Though Calvinists are keen to define "dead in trespasses and sins" as "a corpse-like inability to respond to God" (or something like this), what it seems to me is a far better definition of "dead" is "separated from." This makes better sense of what is evident in the story of the Fall in Eden; it accounts far better for the highly-praised but unregenerate men of Scripture I already mentioned; and it aligns very well with a natural, straightforward reading of the many NT verses that appear to indicate that a freely-made, positive response to the Gospel is, after God's illuminating work, quite possible for the spiritually "dead" person.

The spiritual nature of us died in the Fall of Adam. so unless and until "woken back up" by the Holy Spirit , we stay spiritually deaf dumb and blind

JesusFan · Apr 9, 2025

David Lamb said:
But believing the gospel is not simply a matter of being forward-looking and sensible:

“But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1Co 2:14 NKJV)

From start to finish, salvation is fully of the Lord

Martin Marprelate · Apr 9, 2025

Tenchi said:
Okay. It's my equally firm belief that they were not - and could not have been - saved in anything like the post-Calvary, born-again sense. The blood of animals provided an imperfect atonement for the sins of OT people, sufficiently satisfying God's justice 'til the perfect Lamb of God would come to "take away the sin of the World" (Jn 1:29), his work there extending in all directions through time. See Hebrews 7-10.

I think Romans 3:24-26 is helpful here. '....The redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.'
So the Atonement happened to prove or demonstrate that God had not been unfair or unjust when in His 'forbearance' He had 'passed over' or overlooked for the time being, the sins of His people committed under the Old Covenant. When our Lord suffered and died, He did so to atone for the sins of all God's people, of both dispensations, who would believe in Him. The sins of earlier times were not left unpunished, but were loaded onto Christ (Isaiah 53:6) that God might be seen to be perfectly righteous in all His ways.

I want to deal with the rest of your post, which is interesting and important, but time is against me just now. Sorry!

Van · Apr 9, 2025

Martin Marprelate said:
Well, I'm very happy for anyone reading this to turn t Luke 13:24-30 and decide for himself what the context is.

The answer is, of course, in the context. Many will be seeking to enter through the narrow door, after the Master of the house has shut the door. Again, I'm very happy for people to decide for themselves who the Master of the house is, and what the shutting of the door means.

An unsound interpretation would be to suggest that "none seek after God" really means "Some seek after God sometimes.'

The Rich Young Ruler sought eternal life through the broad way - the way of the scribe in Luke 10:25-28 and the way of the Pharisee in Luke 18:11-12 - the way of works. The narrow way is the way of repentance and faith.

You do go on and on.

The contextual message seems beyond the grasp of the poster, as he only claims it says Luke 13:24 does not mean what it says, which is many were seek the narrow door, thus they desire God, search for access to His kingdom, but do not gain access.

When is the door shut on the opportunity to gain access to to His kingdom? When a lost person physically dies, or when their heart is hardened by God or by their practice of sin, i.e. a Soil #1 type of Matthew 13.

An unsound interpretation of Romans 3:11 would be to claim the interpretation that none seek after God at any time, when verse after verse clear say some lost people do seek God, such as the many seeking the narrow door during their lifetime.

Finally, note that now this poster admits the Rich Young Ruler sought eternal life while being spiritually dead. Game, Set and Match.

Pay no attention to those who say if you seek God by works, or by superficial faith, or without making Christ your overriding priority, you are not really seeking God. This is a straight-up redefinition of seeking to say seeking does not mean seeking unless the goal is found. Utter nonsense.

David Lamb · Apr 10, 2025

Tenchi said:
Yes, I commented on this in my last post. Why do you reply here as though I didn't?

I am very sorry. It seems I replied ignoring your words, " And once God has drawn, convicted and enabled a change of mind concerning His Truth......." I humbly apologise.

Van · Apr 11, 2025

Here is the biblical sequence of our individual salvation:

1) we hear and learn from the Father and are drawn, attracted, with the lovingkindness of Christ's gospel.

2) We put our trust in the name of Christ Jesus, as God the Son, and our Lord and Savior, sent by the Father and raised from the dead by God.

3) God credits our faith, or not at His choosing, as righteousness.

4) On the basis of our credited faith, He transfers us into Christ where we undergo the washing of regeneration, also called the circumcision of Christ.

5) We arise, after the washing, as a new creation, born anew, made spiritually blameless by the blood of the Lamb.

6) Having been established in Christ, we are then indwelt, such that we are in Christ and Christ is in us.

John 3:3-8 teaches we must be born anew spiritually before we can enter the kingdom.
Titus 3:5 teaches we undergo the washing of regeneration, which results in being made spiritually alive, no longer separated from God due to unholiness, and then are indwelt with our Helper who provides renewal for our minds.
Romans 8:9 teaches we are in Christ's Spirit if we are indwelt. If we are not indwelt, we do not belong to Christ.
Romans 8:10 teaches if we are indwelt, we have been made alive by the washing of regeneration and have been made righteous by the blood of the Lamb.
Romans 8:11 teaches if we are indwelt, we will be bodily redeemed, in a glorified physical body, when Christ returns at His Second coming.

Once Saved, Always Saved

David Lamb

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Tenchi

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JesusFan

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JesusFan

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JesusFan

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Martin Marprelate

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Van

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David Lamb

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Van

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