Once Saved, Always Saved

[Tenchi]

NOPE So obfuscation on display

"How do you get "doesn't have an appointment with" from "cannot enter into" or "cannot see"?"

False claim, entering the kindom or entering a doctor's exam room, both allow the person to see and enter.

I don't think you're actually reading and carefully considering my posts. Most of your responses are either talking past my points, or deflecting from them in a rather obvious way, or responding in what seems to be a purposefully obtuse manner.

What is the "false claim" here? I asked you a question in the quotation above.

Making a false inference is a false claim.

And the "false inference" is? I pointed out from the text of John 3 in question what Jesus meant by "cannot see." Where's my "false inference," then?

This "I am not a Calvinist" declined to state which of the 5 points of the TULIP he disavows.

No, I told you where to look for your answer and that it was not TULIP. It's your choice to do the looking, or not.

Being born anew spiritually allows those saved to be indwelt, not the other way around. You have to be "in Christ" to be "made alive" together with Christ. To be made alive requires "regeneration." The washing of regeneration makes the person blameless and holy in Christ. Once established in Christ, the person is then sealed in Christ with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

As far as I can see, nothing you've claimed here actually counters or defeats what I pointed out about the simultaneity of being indwelt and born-again by the Spirit. And none of what you've asserted about your particular sequence has any clear ground in Scripture.

2 Corinthians 1:21 says we are "established" after we are "in Christ" and then verse 22 says God also gives us the Holy Spirit to seal us int Christ and to be a pledge of our bodily redemption at Christ's second coming.

Simply repeating yourself here doesn't make the problem with you're handling of the passage go away. Paul offers no sequence of events in the passage, only a list of spiritual benefits, given by God to the born-again person. You're entirely assuming - and so, forcing into Paul's words - the idea that his list describes a sequence of events.

 

[JesusFan]

Jesus was not lying when He said, many will seek the narrow door.

You must have a different bible, as mine states that many will choice broad road to destruction, and few shall find the narrow road leading to life

 

[JesusFan]

Well, I know plenty of unsaved guys who have stable marriages, successful careers and generally pleasant, affluent lives. I also know unsaved guys of the same age, in the same city, who live miserable lives on the street, homeless. Obviously, the affluent guys are superior to the indigent ones - and so quite apart from the aid of the Holy Spirit. They've made sensible, forward-looking choices, again and again, that have led them to a much better life than their homeless counterparts are living. Why could they not do so concerning the truths of the Gospel, too? They've been able, as unsaved, well-off men, to do so relatively consistently in mundane, temporal matters, so why can't they make the same sort of good choice to accept salvation in Jesus, too?

Well, Scripture indicates that they can. As Job, Noah, Moses, Daniel, Enoch, David, Cornelius, etc. all demonstrate, it's possible, without being born-again, to move toward God, to fear Him and to live a morally-righteous life. And so, when sensible, prudent men encounter the Gospel - the "power of God unto salvation" - it's no surprise that they would embrace it, especially as God acts to draw, convict and enable repentance in them so that they can do so.

Th those who are Saved, gospel sweat aroma, but to those lost , its aroma of death.

and look at Abraham, did God seek Him first out, or was it him? Did Paul seek after Jesus, or did Jesus seek out after him to save him and make him the last Apostles?

 

[JesusFan]

Well, I know plenty of unsaved guys who have stable marriages, successful careers and generally pleasant, affluent lives. I also know unsaved guys of the same age, in the same city, who live miserable lives on the street, homeless. Obviously, the affluent guys are superior to the indigent ones - and so quite apart from the aid of the Holy Spirit. They've made sensible, forward-looking choices, again and again, that have led them to a much better life than their homeless counterparts are living. Why could they not do so concerning the truths of the Gospel, too? They've been able, as unsaved, well-off men, to do so relatively consistently in mundane, temporal matters, so why can't they make the same sort of good choice to accept salvation in Jesus, too?

Well, Scripture indicates that they can. As Job, Noah, Moses, Daniel, Enoch, David, Cornelius, etc. all demonstrate, it's possible, without being born-again, to move toward God, to fear Him and to live a morally-righteous life. And so, when sensible, prudent men encounter the Gospel - the "power of God unto salvation" - it's no surprise that they would embrace it, especially as God acts to draw, convict and enable repentance in them so that they can do so.

Since lost is spiritually dead though, what made the one who saved able to do as Van stated, turned to God, and if he did something on his own, would that not be meriting salvation, or at least co participating with God?

 

[Van]

I don't think you're actually reading and carefully considering my posts. SNIP

Your points are deflections, devoid of content. You claimed not to be a Calvinist, yet are unwilling to state which of the five points of the TULIP you disavow. I disavow the T,the U, the L and the I of the TULIP. They are false doctrines without a shred of support in scripture.

Last example, first we are put into Christ, then established in Christ, then indwelt. You say I did not counter your claim we are first indwelt, then simultaneously put into Christ and undergo the washing of regeneration. Note the deflection from you must be in Christ before you can be sealed in Christ!

 

[Van]

You must have a different bible, as mine states that many will choice broad road to destruction, and few shall find the narrow road leading to life

Folks, I have cited Luke 13:24 many times. But this poster claims it is not in his bible. Such absurd obfuscation is mind boggling.

Luke 13:24 NASB
“Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. Many sought to enter by the narrow door and did not find it. Thus Total Spiritual Inability is an obviously false doctrine.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Jesus was not lying when He said, many will seek the narrow door.

Matt. 7:13-14, NIV 1984. "Enter through the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
No mention here of many seeking the narrow door. Indeed, on the assumption that Peter, Paul and Isaiah were not lying, it is safe to say that no one will find that door, or even seek it, unless the Lord shows it to them and draws them through it.
But "this poster" is thinking of Luke 13:24-25. "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us!'"
But here the context is of the Last Day, the Day of Judgment. Many, it seems will be pleading to enter heaven, precisely because they have not sought to enter through the narrow gate while it was open, despite the Lord Jesus urging them to do so.

 

[David Lamb]

Well, I know plenty of unsaved guys who have stable marriages, successful careers and generally pleasant, affluent lives. I also know unsaved guys of the same age, in the same city, who live miserable lives on the street, homeless. Obviously, the affluent guys are superior to the indigent ones - and so quite apart from the aid of the Holy Spirit. They've made sensible, forward-looking choices, again and again, that have led them to a much better life than their homeless counterparts are living. Why could they not do so concerning the truths of the Gospel, too? They've been able, as unsaved, well-off men, to do so relatively consistently in mundane, temporal matters, so why can't they make the same sort of good choice to accept salvation in Jesus, too?

Well, Scripture indicates that they can. As Job, Noah, Moses, Daniel, Enoch, David, Cornelius, etc. all demonstrate, it's possible, without being born-again, to move toward God, to fear Him and to live a morally-righteous life. And so, when sensible, prudent men encounter the Gospel - the "power of God unto salvation" - it's no surprise that they would embrace it, especially as God acts to draw, convict and enable repentance in them so that they can do so.

The things you mention, having a stable marriage, a successful career and pleasant, affluent lives, are all to do with our earthly life. Making sensible, forward-looking choices regarding aspects of our earthly lives is not the same thing at all as being able to receive/believe the gospel. Paul told the Ephesian Christians:

“And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in [His] kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,” (Eph 2:1-8 NKJV)

How can somebody "dead in trespasses and sins" make choices regarding the gospel? Writing to the Christians at Corinth, Paul said:

“But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1Co 2:14 NKJV)

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Well, I know plenty of unsaved guys who have stable marriages, successful careers and generally pleasant, affluent lives. I also know unsaved guys of the same age, in the same city, who live miserable lives on the street, homeless. Obviously, the affluent guys are superior to the indigent ones - and so quite apart from the aid of the Holy Spirit. They've made sensible, forward-looking choices, again and again, that have led them to a much better life than their homeless counterparts are living. Why could they not do so concerning the truths of the Gospel, too? They've been able, as unsaved, well-off men, to do so relatively consistently in mundane, temporal matters, so why can't they make the same sort of good choice to accept salvation in Jesus, too?

I think perhaps that Psalm 73 talks about such people.

Well, Scripture indicates that they can. As Job, Noah, Moses, Daniel, Enoch, David, Cornelius, etc. all demonstrate, it's possible, without being born-again, to move toward God, to fear Him and to live a morally-righteous life. And so, when sensible, prudent men encounter the Gospel - the "power of God unto salvation" - it's no surprise that they would embrace it, especially as God acts to draw, convict and enable repentance in them so that they can do so.

It is my firm opinion that the people you mention were all born anew. 'Most assuredly, I say to You, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.'

 

[Van]

Matt. 7:13-14, NIV 1984. "Enter through the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
No mention here of many seeking the narrow door. Indeed, on the assumption that Peter, Paul and Isaiah were not lying, it is safe to say that no one will find that door, or even seek it, unless the Lord shows it to them and draws them through it.
But "this poster" is thinking of Luke 13:24-25. "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us!'"
But here the context is of the Last Day, the Day of Judgment. Many, it seems will be pleading to enter heaven, precisely because they have not sought to enter through the narrow gate while it was open, despite the Lord Jesus urging them to do so.

Yet another claim scripture which contradicts man-made doctrine does not mean what it says. Many will try to find the narrow door. Full Stop
This is the contextual meaning. Full Stop. The claim that some of the lost, the many, are unable or unwilling to seek God is unbiblical nonsense. Full Stop.

 

[JesusFan]

Matt. 7:13-14, NIV 1984. "Enter through the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
No mention here of many seeking the narrow door. Indeed, on the assumption that Peter, Paul and Isaiah were not lying, it is safe to say that no one will find that door, or even seek it, unless the Lord shows it to them and draws them through it.
But "this poster" is thinking of Luke 13:24-25. "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us!'"
But here the context is of the Last Day, the Day of Judgment. Many, it seems will be pleading to enter heaven, precisely because they have not sought to enter through the narrow gate while it was open, despite the Lord Jesus urging them to do so.

And who would be the very ones to find that narrow gate, but the ones who are the sheep of the good shepherd Himself, who can hear Him and follow Him home?

 

[JesusFan]

Yet another claim scripture which contradicts man-made doctrine does not mean what it says. Many will try to find the narrow door. Full Stop
This is the contextual meaning. Full Stop. The claim that some of the lost, the many, are unable or unwilling to seek God is unbiblical nonsense. Full Stop.

And who would be the very ones to find that narrow gate, but the ones who are the sheep of the good shepherd Himself, who can hear Him and follow Him home?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Yet another claim scripture which contradicts man-made doctrine does not mean what it says. Many will try to find the narrow door. Full Stop
This is the contextual meaning. Full Stop. The claim that some of the lost, the many, are unable or unwilling to seek God is unbiblical nonsense. Full Stop.

One of us is claiming that Scripture doesn't mean what it says to support his man-made doctrine. I think it might be the one who is ignoring the rather obvious context. Full Stop.

 

[Van]

One of us is claiming that Scripture doesn't mean what it says to support his man-made doctrine. I think it might be the one who is ignoring the rather obvious context. Full Stop.

When a poster refers to the "context" we must ask ourselves " does the poster really mean the "fairy dust of Calvinism?"

Does the verse say, many will try to find the narrow door? Yes or no? The answer my friends is not blowing in the contextual wind, it is right there is black and white, the answer is YES!!! Does this mean contextually they really didn't try to find the narrow door? NO!!

Folks, if an interpretation of one verse means that many other verses do not mean what they say, the interpretation is unsound.

The unsound interpretation, advocated by some, is "none seek after God" means no lost person ever seeks after God because they suffer from total spiritual inability. However, the rich young rules sought eternal life. the many sought the narrow door, the Jews in Romans 9:30-33 sought God by woks rather than faith. I could go on and on, citing verse after verse from both the OT and the NT. In every case the closed minded will say, the verses do not mean what they say due to their disagreement with the false doctrine they bought into beforehand.

 

[Van]

And who would be the very ones to find that narrow gate, but the ones who are the sheep of the good shepherd Himself, who can hear Him and follow Him home?

More irrational nonsense, if we are the sheep of the good shepherd Himself, we would no longer be looking for the narrow door. Duh

But if we are "of My sheep" as are the many seeking the narrow door, we would not yet, if ever, belong to Christ Jesus.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

When a poster refers to the "context" we must ask ourselves " does the poster really mean the "fairy dust of Calvinism?"

Well, I'm very happy for anyone reading this to turn t Luke 13:24-30 and decide for himself what the context is.

Does the verse say, many will try to find the narrow door? Yes or no? The answer my friends is not blowing in the contextual wind, it is right there is black and white, the answer is YES!!! Does this mean contextually they really didn't try to find the narrow door? NO!!

The answer is, of course, in the context. Many will be seeking to enter through the narrow door, after the Master of the house has shut the door. Again, I'm very happy for people to decide for themselves who the Master of the house is, and what the shutting of the door means.

Folks, if an interpretation of one verse means that many other verses do not mean what they say, the interpretation is unsound.

The unsound interpretation, advocated by some, is "none seek after God" means no lost person ever seeks after God because they suffer from total spiritual inability.

An unsound interpretation would be to suggest that "none seek after God" really means "Some seek after God sometimes.'

However, the rich young rules sought eternal life. the many sought the narrow door, the Jews in Romans 9:30-33 sought God by woks rather than faith.

The Rich Young Ruler sought eternal life through the broad way - the way of the scribe in Luke 10:25-28 and the way of the Pharisee in Luke 18:11-12 - the way of works. The narrow way is the way of repentance and faith.

I could go on and on,

You do go on and on.

 

[JesusFan]

Well, I'm very happy for anyone reading this to turn t Luke 13:24-30 and decide for himself what the context is.

The answer is, of course, in the context. Many will be seeking to enter through the narrow door, after the Master of the house has shut the door. Again, I'm very happy for people to decide for themselves who the Master of the house is, and what the shutting of the door means.

An unsound interpretation would be to suggest that "none seek after God" really means "Some seek after God sometimes.'

The Rich Young Ruler sought eternal life through the broad way - the way of the scribe in Luke 10:25-28 and the way of the Pharisee in Luke 18:11-12 - the way of works. The narrow way is the way of repentance and faith.

You do go on and on.

One of us is claiming that Scripture doesn't mean what it says to support his man-made doctrine. I think it might be the one who is ignoring the rather obvious context. Full Stop.

"Tain't so"

 

[Silverhair]

You must have a different bible, as mine states that many will choice broad road to destruction, and few shall find the narrow road leading to life

But notice
1; they were not chosen for it
2; they were not placed on it
but rather, they found it. They chose the narrow road leading to life.

 

[Tenchi]

The things you mention, having a stable marriage, a successful career and pleasant, affluent lives, are all to do with our earthly life. Making sensible, forward-looking choices regarding aspects of our earthly lives is not the same thing at all as being able to receive/believe the gospel. Paul told the Ephesian Christians:

“And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in [His] kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,” (Eph 2:1-8 NKJV)

How can somebody "dead in trespasses and sins" make choices regarding the gospel? Writing to the Christians at Corinth, Paul said:

“But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1Co 2:14 NKJV)

There is, of course, nothing more forward-looking and sensible than the Gospel. And once God has drawn, convicted and enabled a change of mind concerning His Truth (Jn. 6:44; 16:8; 2 Ti. 2:25), an unsaved but prudent and reasonable man can most certainly choose to trust in Christ as his Savior and Lord, just as he's done concerning more mundane things. Even when there wasn't the invitation of the Gospel to which to respond, men who were not born-again were able to respond positively to God (Job, Noah, Daniel, Enoch, David, Cornelius, etc.) and were called "righteous," "good," God-fearing,"and so on, by Him. What more, then, the response of a unsaved "wise" man who has been illuminated to the truth of the Gospel by God? He is, it seems obvious to me, more likely to trust in Christ for his salvation than a man chronically in the habit of making foolish, short-sighted choices. In this, the sensible lost man does better - born, at least in part, of the habit of making wise choices - than the man who's formed in his life such momentum in choosing foolishly that he makes the same kind of choice regarding the Gospel. It's quite uncontroversial to recognize this, it seems to me.

Though Calvinists are keen to define "dead in trespasses and sins" as "a corpse-like inability to respond to God" (or something like this), what it seems to me is a far better definition of "dead" is "separated from." This makes better sense of what is evident in the story of the Fall in Eden; it accounts far better for the highly-praised but unregenerate men of Scripture I already mentioned; and it aligns very well with a natural, straightforward reading of the many NT verses that appear to indicate that a freely-made, positive response to the Gospel is, after God's illuminating work, quite possible for the spiritually "dead" person.

 

[Tenchi]

It is my firm opinion that the people you mention were all born anew. 'Most assuredly, I say to You, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.'

Okay. It's my equally firm belief that they were not - and could not have been - saved in anything like the post-Calvary, born-again sense. The blood of animals provided an imperfect atonement for the sins of OT people, sufficiently satisfying God's justice 'til the perfect Lamb of God would come to "take away the sin of the World" (Jn 1:29), his work there extending in all directions through time. See Hebrews 7-10.

John 7:37-39
37 Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink.
38 "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'"
39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Even the disciples upon whom Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit in John 20 had to be properly "baptized" into Christ by the Spirit in Acts 2 and thus truly "born-again." If they had been fully born-again by the Spirit, washed, regenerated and permanently indwelt by him (Tit. 3:5; He. 13:5; Ro. 8:9-14), prior to Christ's work on the cross, why did Christ need to die? If there was some other fully-justifying mechanism that was possible prior to his sacrifice at Calvary, which is what is implicitly asserted by the claim that OT folk were "born anew," why proceed to the awful means of the cross to achieve the same thing this mechanism does? Why have the OT sacrificial system, if a post-Calvary, new covenant state of spiritual regeneration could be obtained that does away with that system?