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If the Jews had accepted Jesus as their messiah, would He still have been crucified?

RootBeer

RootBeer

New Member
I think the answer is yes, though there would not have been the need for a future Second Coming. The Kingdom would have started immediately after the resurrection.

This implies the Romans would have acted on their own, without input from the Jewish leadership.

Your thoughts on this?
 
Dr. Bob

Dr. Bob

Administrator
Administrator
Jesus is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. It was ALWAYS Plan A. Hundreds of prophecies breathed by God would have been incorrect had the Jew's "free will" overridden God's will and they did not crucify their Messiah.

Give the idea to Netflix and let them conjure up a new "cross-less" Gospel TV series. Liberals would love to take the cross out of the conversation.
 
C

Charlie24

Active Member
RootBeer said:
I think the answer is yes, though there would not have been the need for a future Second Coming. The Kingdom would have started immediately after the resurrection.

This implies the Romans would have acted on their own, without input from the Jewish leadership.

Your thoughts on this?
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When John the Baptist came saying, Behold the Kingdom of God is at hand, and then Jesus said, Behold the Kingdom of God is at hand, they literally meant the Kingdom of God was being offered to Israel. But it was not meant to be this way.

God through His foreknowledge knew Israel would freely reject Christ. If it would have meant to be that way, there would have been no Church Age, we would have went straight to the Kingdom Age with Christ ruling on this earth.

See, Christ only came to the lost sheep of Israel. They were chosen of God to evangelize the world, introduce the world to Christ that the Gentiles might be saved. But Israel failed miserably and killed their own Messiah.

So God chose the Gentile Church to evangelize the world in place of Israel. Well, 95% Gentile, God has always had a small remnant of Jews.

But Paul tells us that God is not finished with Israel, far from it, he said Israel will yet fulfill their original calling. This is after "all Israel will be saved" as Paul plainly told us.
 
C

Charlie24

Active Member
Charlie24 said:
When John the Baptist came saying, Behold the Kingdom of God is at hand, and then Jesus said, Behold the Kingdom of God is at hand, they literally meant the Kingdom of God was being offered to Israel. But it was not meant to be this way.

God through His foreknowledge knew Israel would freely reject Christ. If it would have meant to be that way, there would have been no Church Age, we would have went straight to the Kingdom Age with Christ ruling on this earth.

See, Christ only came to the lost sheep of Israel. They were chosen of God to evangelize the world, introduce the world to Christ that the Gentiles might be saved. But Israel failed miserably and killed their own Messiah.

So God chose the Gentile Church to evangelize the world in place of Israel. Well, 95% Gentile, God has always had a small remnant of Jews.

But Paul tells us that God is not finished with Israel, far from it, he said Israel will yet fulfill their original calling. This is after "all Israel will be saved" as Paul plainly told us.
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That's the reason the Law of Moses was given only to the Hebrews, to prepare them for their coming Messiah, so they could bring the Gentile world to Christ.

So the Cross would have never happened. But as I said, it was not meant to be this way even though the facts are there.
 
C

Charlie24

Active Member
Charlie24 said:
That's the reason the Law of Moses was given only to the Hebrews, to prepare them for their coming Messiah, so they could bring the Gentile world to Christ.

So the Cross would have never happened. But as I said, it was not meant to be this way even though the facts are there.
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There is an invisible line that separates man's reality from God's reality, and we can't cross that line in this life.

I've tried many times to understand this, but I'm no capable of doing so.
 
DaveXR650

DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
Charlie24 said:
There is an invisible line that separates man's reality from God's reality, and we can't cross that line in this life.

I've tried many times to understand this, but I'm no capable of doing so.
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This is true and it gets into the issues of how can God decree something so that indeed it will be, and has to be, yet the people involved really were acting according to their free will choices and are responsible for those choices.
 
C

Charlie24

Active Member
DaveXR650 said:
This is true and it gets into the issues of how can God decree something so that indeed it will be, and has to be, yet the people involved really were acting according to their free will choices and are responsible for those choices.
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LOL, I see you don't miss any opportunity to pitch for the home team!

That's not the way I was going with it, but I have to admit that was very clever!
 
T

timf

Member
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

The payment for sins would still have to be made regardless if Israel received the kingdom or not.
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Charlie24 said:
LOL, I see you don't miss any opportunity to pitch for the home team!

That's not the way I was going with it, but I have to admit that was very clever!
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I actually agree with Dave that God has decreed somethings, the cross and even the means of salvation, so that indeed they would be. But He has not decreed all things such as who will be saved and who will be damned.
 
DaveXR650

DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
I actually agree with Dave that God has decreed somethings, the cross and even the means of salvation, so that indeed they would be. But He has not decreed all things such as who will be saved and who will be damned.
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And I believe that when a person hears the gospel or reads it, if they come to Christ they will be saved. And for those that don't, someday, when they look back at this, they will realize that they themselves are responsible for this disaster. It was not for lack of atonement, or because God had decreed that they be damned, but that they would not come.
 
C

Charlie24

Active Member
Silverhair said:
I actually agree with Dave that God has decreed somethings, the cross and even the means of salvation, so that indeed they would be. But He has not decreed all things such as who will be saved and who will be damned.
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The Cross and the means of salvation is God's redemption plan for man decreed before the foundation of the world. It is the way God chose and predetermined for man to escape the wages of sin, which is spiritual death. Eternal separation from God.

Everything in Scripture after the fall of man in Gen 3 is about God's redemption plan in direct instruction or examples, or the consequences of failing to take Him up on it.

They will never understand this until they accept the many verses of free will found in Scripture that you and I and several others have been pointing to all this time. They are stumbling over them every time they open the Bible.
 
C

Charlie24

Active Member
Charlie24 said:
The Cross and the means of salvation is God's redemption plan for man decreed before the foundation of the world. It is the way God chose and predetermined for man to escape the wages of sin, which is spiritual death. Eternal separation from God.

Everything in Scripture after the fall of man in Gen 3 is about God's redemption plan in direct instruction or examples, or the consequences of failing to take Him up on it.

They will never understand this until they accept the many verses of free will found in Scripture that you and I and several others have been pointing to all this time. They are stumbling over them every time they open the Bible.
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I don't know if you've ever read the OT in type form. By that I mean reading each and every story given to find the type of Christ represented in redemption. That is what's underneath the ink in the OT. The story of redemption predestined for man before the foundation of the world. But only for those who will freely accept it.

Read any story in the OT and there's a type of Redeemer representing Christ and a redemption that takes place.
 
C

Charlie24

Active Member
Charlie24 said:
I don't know if you've ever read the OT in type form. By that I mean reading each and every story given to find the type of Christ represented in redemption. That is what's underneath the ink in the OT. The story of redemption predestined for man before the foundation of the world. But only for those who will freely accept it.

Read any story in the OT and there's a type of Redeemer representing Christ and a redemption that takes place.
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It's so simple that it hides itself from the average reader.

When David killed Goliath, David was the type of Christ that redeemed Israel from the Philistines (Satan)

When Moses was told by God to cut down the tree and cast in into the bitter waters of Marah to make the water sweet, the Tree represented the Cross of Christ redeeming Israel from sin. Remember Peter calling the Cross, The Tree?

When Joshua sent out the spies and they went to the house of Rahab, she believed in the Hebrew God when she seen all that had happened. The spies told they when they come they would spare her life and all in her house if she hung a scarlet thread from her window. That scarlet thread represented the Blood of Christ saving her soul and all inside the house who believed.

The story of Ruth and Boaz, all of it redemption. All the stories of Israel and Philistines, redemption. All the prophet stories, redemption.

On and on it goes, redemption.
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
DaveXR650 said:
And I believe that when a person hears the gospel or reads it, if they come to Christ they will be saved. And for those that don't, someday, when they look back at this, they will realize that they themselves are responsible for this disaster. It was not for lack of atonement, or because God had decreed that they be damned, but that they would not come.
Click to expand...

That is just what I see in scripture, God draws but does not drag people to Himself. Man is drawn to but is not force to believe in the God of creation and savior of their souls.
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Charlie24 said:
I don't know if you've ever read the OT in type form. By that I mean reading each and every story given to find the type of Christ represented in redemption. That is what's underneath the ink in the OT. The story of redemption predestined for man before the foundation of the world. But only for those who will freely accept it.

Read any story in the OT and there's a type of Redeemer representing Christ and a redemption that takes place.
Click to expand...
Mike Winger has a series of videos, Jesus in the Old Testament, where he goes through the OT and looks at all the types found there.
 
C

Charlie24

Active Member
37818 said:
Sir, I understand this not to be true.
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1 Peter 1:19-20

"But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,"

He wasn't literally slain "before the foundation of the world."

He was "foreordained" before the foundation of the world to be literally slain.

This is predestination! God's foreknowledge that man would sin before He created man, and the predestination was His plan of Redemption to redeem man from his sin.

"Whosoever will let him come", is who will be elected for this plan.

You see, there are 2 types of Election in the Scripture. Israel is the Elect of God even though they are not saved as a nation.

And there is the general Election, the "whosoever will" that choose to come at the call.

God through His foreknowledge knew every single person who would accept that call, they are the Election from the foundation of the world, already known to Him in the very beginning.
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
Charlie24 said:
He wasn't literally slain "before the foundation of the world."

He was "foreordained" before the foundation of the world to be literally slain.
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1 Peter 1:20-21, Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
 
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