I read where Romans 3:23 means that all sinned at one point in time past...The fall. you quoted 5:14, yes, we were not Adam, but we sinned in Him.
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Is the Doctrine of Original Sin Biblical?
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Silverhair
Well-Known Member
So f it was an actual salvation that everyone is saved, is that what you believe?
But since I do not think actually believe that then you have to think God was lying to us.
1Ti 2:3 This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who wants everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.
1Ti 4:10 To this end we labor and strive, because we have set our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of everyone, and especially of those who believe.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all—the testimony that was given at just the right time.
Now I will want for your twisting of these clear verses so that they fit your man-made theology.
As I said only those that believe in the risen Christ will be saved so we agree.
Where you drift from scripture is when you make that wrong assumption that people were saved at the cross. Paul was clear [1Co_15:17] that it is through the risen Christ that we are saved so you either believe the bible or you believe what some man has told you. The choice is yours.
So what are you trying to say?
1Jn 2:2 He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
So who was Christ the atoning sacrifice for even leaving out the words "the sins of"?
Leaving those words out does not change who Christ was the propitiation for, "our" sins & "the whole world" sins.
I can understand that you want to defend your theological view but you should trust what the bible actually says and not what some group of men tell you it says.
You do not need to believe what I or any other man says about the bible but you had better believe what God has said in His bible.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
I had to look that up, is this what you believe?
Double predestination is the idea that not only does God choose some to be saved, He also creates some people who will be damned.
If you do then I have to ask why the cross?
Also you have just made God worse than Satan. While Satan tries to trick people into following him and thus going to hell. God actively sends people to hell before they have done any wrong.
Double predestination fails to account for the fact that God desires all to be saved (1Ti_2:4) and commands His creation to repent (Act_17:30). Obviously, it would be illogical for God to desire everyone to be saved and command all people to repent if He had already divinely determined their destiny based on His eternal decree.
The fact that double predestination calls into question the biblical character of God should give you pause. But I doubt that it will.
This I find amazing.
There are 6 audios consisting apparently of 14 chapters telling us what God tells us in one verse consisting of eight Greek words.
I am not at all saying Pink is wrong (or right, for that matter). I just find it interesting that anybody would read Romans 8:8 and think "well, we need a theologian to explain this one to us".... much less a theologian who would read the verse and think "wow....this is going to take 14 chapters to explain".
I wonder why we feel a need to make something simple and straightforward into something complicated.
Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
If man is sinful, then he is not God, which I am not, for example.
That's why I don't dive into rewriting entire passages as if they are mine to do with as I please. But, it is God, after all, Who does what He Pleases with that which is His, right?
(Good in what sense? Better than bad, by giving your kid a stone when they asked for bread, or 'Good' in a Spiritually Annointed Gracious Operation of the Holy Spirit?, i.e., which has nothing to do with a lost soul choosing God. Lost man is able to recognize a snake from a candy bar, to do good in that sense is all. Big deal. Not handing your kid and obtaining the Extra More than His Natural Perfect Goodness from God the Father, by fantasizing that a lost, undone, putrifying sore of a God-hating wicked sinner worm has some desire, much less ability, to come to God is making life come from a rock.
That may be an assumption you have about it all, but the disproof is not to just assume that Eternal Life is the same as collecting Easter eggs.
God? Will be? As the result of responding to the actions of sin-cursed man?
A Much Better? Father?
I guess that's perfectly normal and perfectly natural and logical..
In a system of computing where you have "not of him that willeth" actually willing to be saved, then it would follow, I suppose, that the One and Only Perfect God the Father
might be said to be able to Will to be a much better Father than He already is...
You won't catch me trying to undermine this monumental treatment of man's Total Depravity, by using that kind of equation. It almost sounds self-contriduictory, to me.
God has Mercy on whom HE WILL HAVE MERCY.
If God is waiting on man, who will not come to Him that he might have Life, He will be waiting all throughout the Everlasting Endurance of Eternity, TO NO AVAIL.
From The FREE AGENCY OF Man by T.P. Simmons.
IV. FREE AGENCY OF THE NATURAL MAN
"Man cannot do otherwise than continue in sin so long as he is in his natural state (Jer. 17:9; Prov. 4:23; Job 14-4; Jer. 13:23; John 6:65; Rom. 8:7,8; 1 Cor. 2:14).
"But his continuance in sin is not due to outside compulsion or restraint, but to his own character which causes him to choose darkness rather than light (John 3:19).
"He continues in sin for the same reason that a hog wallows in the mire.
He continues in sin for the same reason that God continues in holiness.
Thus he is fully a free agent.
V. FREE AGENCY AND DIVINE HARDENING AND BLINDING
"In the hardening and blinding of sinners, which is unmistakably attributed to God in the Scripture (Rom. 9:18; John 12:40), there is no outside force brought to bear upon the will of the sinner.
"While God is said to blind and to harden the sinner, the sinner is said to blind and harden himself. John 12:40 is a quotation from Isa. 6:10, where the prophet Isaiah is commanded to shut the eyes of the people. Then in Matt. 13:14,15 there is another free quotation from this same prophecy, and in Matthew the sinners are said to have closed their own eyes.
"Then, still again, in 2 Cor. 4:3,4, we have the blinding of sinners attributed to the devil. All of these passages refer to the same thing, and all of them are true because they are in the Word of God. We have the blinding of sinners attributed to God, to the devil, to the prophet, and to the sinners themselves. It is ours to find, if we can, the harmony between these statements.
"Here it is: The blinding is Attributed to God because He Decreed, whether Permissively or Efficiently, all the circumstances that render the sinner blind.
"The blinding is attributed to the devil because he is the author of sin by which the sinner is blinded.
"The same blinding is attributed to the prophet because his preaching of the Word brings out and makes the blindness of the sinner active in his rejection of the Word.
"Then, finally, the blinding is attributed to the sinner himself because he loves darkness rather than light, and manifests his choice of darkness by rejecting the Word.
"This leaves the natural man a free agent.
"If God, or the devil or the prophet, by a power outside of the nature of the sinner, could compel the sinner against his choice to reject the Word, the sinner would no longer be a free agent, and he would be no longer responsible for his unbelief.
Alans Note: but, he is responsible and even condemned already.
"Responsibility and free agency go hand in hand.
"What has been said of the blinding of the sinner is also true of the hardening of the sinner. The hardening of the heart of Pharaoh is attributed to God (Rom. 9:18; Ex. 4:21; 7:3; 7:13; 9:12; 10:1,20,27; 11:10). But it is also attributed to Pharaoh himself (Ex. 8:15,32; 9.,34). The explanation is the same as for the blinding treated above.
VI. FREE AGENCY AND CONVERSION;
"Man is unable to turn from sin until he is Quickened by the Spirit of God.
Alans Note: make note of that, write that down.
"For proof of this see the passages given in proof of the fact that man cannot do otherwise than continue in sin so long as he is in his natural state. The New Nature, therefore, must be Implanted logically (and chronologically) prior to the exercise of Repentance and Faith.* This is the meaning of the New Hampshire Declaration of Faith when it says that Repentance and Faith are "Inseparable Graces Wrought in our souls by the rRegenerating Spirit of God." FIRST. This is also the teaching of Eph. 1:19,20.
But when a man turns to God in Repentance and Faith he acts voluntarily and is thus a free agent. He is not compelled to turn by a power outside of his own Nature. For, in Implanting the New Nature, the Holy Spirit Operates "in the region of the soul below consciousness" (Strong). Then that New Nature, when Implanted, becomes as much a part of the man as the old Nature was; and it Moves the will in strict conformity to the Nature, Laws, and normal action of the will. Thus man is a free agent in Conversion; and, of course, remains a free agent, although God continues to Work in him "both to Will and to Work for His Good Pleasure" (Phil. 2:13). But this Work, like the Work of Quickening, does not coerce the will."
ALANS NOTE: BEING BORN AGAIN, BY THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD,
GIVES THE SAVED SOUL AN ENTIRELY NEW WILL WITH WHICH TO WILL WITH
WHICH CHOOSES TO THEN TURN FROM THEIR SIN THAT THEY NOW RECOGNIZE
IS ETERNALLY OFFENSIVE TO GOD AND DESERVES ETERNAL PUNISHMENT IN HELL
AND THEN WILL TO TURN TO JESUS CHRIST IN FAITH AND BELIEF THAT WHEN JESUS DIED, HE DIED FOR THEM AND THAT WHEN HE WAS BURIED, HE BURIED THEIR SINS AWAY, AND THAT GOD ACCEPTED JESUS' PAYMENT FOR THEIR SINS.
HOW DO THEY KNOW GOD ACCEPTED JESUS' PAYMENT FOR THEM IN THEIR PLACE?
BECAUSE, WHAT HAPPENED THE THIRD DAY? SOME PEOPLE BELIEVE THAT.
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT WHEN JESUS RAISED FROM THE DEAD, GOD WAS SHOWING HIS APPROVAL FOR YOUR SOUL TO BE SAVED FOR SURE, PERSONALLY?
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*For fuller discussion of this see chapter on "Conversion."
__________
Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
Pink is simply, systematically teaching what God has written to Mankind,
on the subject of Total Depravity, which is taught with each of the other Doctrines of Grace in every book of the Bible.
I know what he's teaching.... read a lot of Pink.
This is what I've tried to explain to several here about Penal Substitution Theory. It all goes together.
One can't say on one hand that Penal Substitution Theory is right and on another that Calvinism - all five "points" - is wrong.
It all goes together.
If Penal Substitution Theory is right then limited atonement has to be right because God's forgiveness is based on those sins being punished on Christ (the demands of justice).
If limited atonement is right then man's efforts had absolutely nothing to do with man's salvation (this was completely God's work accomplished on the cross to save those He chose long before any of us were born).
If total depravity is right then unconditional election has to be right otherwise nobody would be saved.
If unconditional election is right then perseverance of the saints has to be right as our ultimate salvation is by God's will and not human merit or works.
If any of this is right then God's grace has to be irresistible otherwise, again, salvation would be based on works.
I'm not saying everybody who believes Penal Substitution Theory has to be a 5 point Calvinist, or that holding one point one has to hold them all.
But to have any logical consistency one does. If you take away one part the rest crumbles.
As far as I know no Baptist churches , except the Reformed, teach a doctrine of original sin. Those who believes the Reformed faith are in the only religion that promotes this doctrine. It perverts both the doctrine of man and the doctrine of God. It is fundamentally wrong as it relates to the Christian faith.
Equally unscriptural is the doctrine of total depravity. It is a made up doctrine to prop up the doctrine of original sin and the TULIP. It did not come from God. Out of the four words, original, sin, total, depravity, three are not found in the scriptures. Only the word sin is found in the scriptures. How can one say they are preaching the word of God when preaching these doctrines?
Alan, I refer you to a doctrine that hardly ever gets mentioned on this forum. It is the doctrine of another Jesus. It has commentary in 2 Cor 11. Someone should have the boldness to say these doctrines are not taught by the words of God.
When all the fluff is moved away, you teach against what God has commanded while saying he is unable to obey.
Acts 17:16 ¶ Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry.
17 Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.
18 Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.
19 And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?
20 For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean.
21 (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing).
22 ¶ Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars’ hill, and said, [Ye] men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
The last message in the Book to fallen men and you don't believe it;
Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.
20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
When Jesus was raised, he conquered death. When he gave his life and shed his blood for sin he paid for our sin.
I don’t remember reading Scripture about the resurrection being a token of approval.
I don’t know that any Baptist thinks they are going to lift themselves up out of the gutter and restore themselves by their own will.
That “no man seeks after God” we agree with. It is plainly in Scripture.
That “we love Him because He first loved us” we also agree with.
It is impossible for us to love Him first. He loved us all from before the foundation of the world when he became the slain Lamb for us.
Rom. 5.6-8 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Jesus died for all who were sinners. All sinners need salvation.
Romans 5.18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
So God recognized that all men are under judgment and offers all the free gift of salvation. And for this, no one is boasting and saying I brought myself to God. It is the corollary arguments that are flawed. We are not diminishing God. We recognize that sinful man needs God and God offers salvation to all.
In my view, it is the Calvinist position that lifts up their minds over God to override God’s offerings of salvation to all. This is the old man that exalts his own mind above what God said.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Gen 3:19 By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
So we see that a consequence of Adam's sin is, we die just as he did.
But you said we all sinned in him.
Rom_5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
I did various searches, as in, Adam sin..., in Adam, in him. None of them gave me the view you are holding. Where in scripture did you find that we all sinned in Adam?
Since your view is not in the bible it must have come for some man or group of men. They have read a theological view into scripture.
Now whom shall you believe God or man?
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Romans 3:23
It comes from the bible, men have studied it and understood it.
All sinned, at one point in time..The fall.
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Silverhair
Well-Known Member
As you said, the view you hold is from man not scripture. Surely if they were going to make such a bold statement they must have clear scripture to support it.
Since you do not agree with the word of God then show me where you got the view you hold.
So it seems you are going to trust the philosophy of man rather that what the word of God says.
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