As long as it's faith producing the works, and not the other way around, all will be well. If not, big surprise coming.
Paul made it absolutely clear that our initial salvation is NOT of works, better be careful that you understand that.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
The Heresy of Cessaitionism
- Thread starter Deadworm
- Start date
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
As long as it's faith producing the works, and not the other way around, all will be well. If not, big surprise coming.
Paul made it absolutely clear that our initial salvation is NOT of works, better be careful that you understand that.
As long as it's faith producing the works, and not the other way around, all will be well. If not, big surprise coming.
Paul made it absolutely clear that our initial salvation is NOT of works, better be careful that you understand that.
So long as faith is not just thinking but is also doing, all will be well.
If faith is just intellectual assent alone, it’s a dead faith, but if it’s faith that is working through Love, it’s the faith that saves.
Very important people understand that.
So long as faith is not just thinking but is also doing, all will be well.
If faith is just intellectual assent alone, it’s a dead faith, but if it’s faith that is working through Love, it’s the faith that saves.
Very important people understand that.
I agree! Just making sure you're not working for your salvation.
So long as faith is not just thinking but is also doing, all will be well.
If faith is just intellectual assent alone, it’s a dead faith, but if it’s faith that is working through Love, it’s the faith that saves.
Very important people understand that.
Cathode, can a Protestant be saved that will have nothing to do with the RCC?
Cathode, can a Protestant be saved that will have nothing to do with the RCC?
It's not a trick question. Some Catholics will say yes and some no.
Just wondering what you say.
I agree! Just making sure you're not working for your salvation.
No, Faith is the core of it, its just the definition of Faith that needs to be precise.
As James points out, it’s not just thinking “ Go in peace; keep warm and well fed “ but not giving the hungry something to eat.
The giving of something to eat is faith in action.
“Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it?”
So faith is not just in the thinking but also the doing.
No, Faith is the core of it, its just the definition of Faith that needs to be precise.
As James points out, it’s not just thinking “ Go in peace; keep warm and well fed “ but not giving the hungry something to eat.
The giving of something to eat is faith in action.
“Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it?”
So faith is not just in the thinking but also the doing.
That's working because you're saved, in harmony with the Holy Spirit.
If you are Baptised, you are considered a member of the Catholic Church. We have always considered Baptism as regenerational, same as all the other ancient Churches.Cathode, can a Protestant be saved that will have nothing to do with the RCC?
However if someone believed the Catholic Church teachings were true yet still rejected it, then they would be in very great danger.
Mortal sin is the other thing that puts one outside the Church. This is what we call not being in a state of Grace.
So if you commit murder let’s say, you would need to repent and confess that.
We believe that mortal sin cuts a soul off from saving grace unless people repent of it.
“All mortal sins are to be submitted to the keys of the Church and all can be forgiven; but recourse to these keys is the only, the necessary, and the certain way to forgiveness. Unless those who are guilty of grievous sin have recourse to the power of the keys, they cannot hope for eternal salvation. Open your lips, them, and confess your sins to the priest. Confession alone is the true gate to Heaven.” Augustine, Christian Combat (A.D. 397).
If you are Baptised, you are considered a member of the Catholic Church. We have always considered Baptism as regenerational, same as all the other ancient Churches.
However if someone believed the Catholic Church teachings were true yet still rejected it, then they would be in very great danger.
Mortal sin is the other thing that puts one outside the Church. This is what we call not being in a state of Grace.
So if you commit murder let’s say, you would need to repent and confess that.
We believe that mortal sin cuts a soul off from saving grace unless people repent of it.
“All mortal sins are to be submitted to the keys of the Church and all can be forgiven; but recourse to these keys is the only, the necessary, and the certain way to forgiveness. Unless those who are guilty of grievous sin have recourse to the power of the keys, they cannot hope for eternal salvation. Open your lips, them, and confess your sins to the priest. Confession alone is the true gate to Heaven.” Augustine, Christian Combat (A.D. 397).
We believe we have individual access to the Throne of God and don't need to go through a priest.
Our Mediator is Christ, not anyone in the Church.
If there is sin in the Church and there is no open repentance, the pastor is to step in and deal with it according to the Instructions given by Paul.
That's working because you're saved, in harmony with the Holy Spirit.
Your believing in Faith is also doing, not just thinking intellectually.
Faith is the believing and doing in our understanding, what is a Christian that believes and doesn’t do what he believes?
For us Faith is in the doing of what Jesus says for us to do, it’s our belief in action as well that we call “ Faith “.
Your believing in Faith is also doing, not just thinking intellectually.
Faith is the believing and doing in our understanding, what is a Christian that believes and doesn’t do what he believes?
For us Faith is in the doing of what Jesus says for us to do, it’s our belief in action as well that we call “ Faith “.
"To him who knows to good and does it not, to him it is sin."
We believe we have individual access to the Throne of God and don't need to go through a priest.
Our Mediator is Christ, not anyone in the Church.
If there is sin in the Church and there is no open repentance, the pastor is to step in and deal with it according to the Instructions given by Paul.
We believe that when we go to the priest /Apostolic Successor like Timothy or Titus, we are going to Jesus.
We see them as Christ’s ambassadors and ministers, but in the sacrament of confession we believe that it is Jesus Himself hearing our confession being spiritually present in them.
Spiritually, we are confessing to Jesus Himself, not to a man.
As Paul said “ forgave it I in the Person of Christ “
Paul forgave sin in the Person of Christ.
Persona Christi is the term we use to describe it.
The sheriff arrests a man in the Person of the King, it’s the same as if the King himself arrested the guy. The sheriff has all the Authority of the King invested in him to act for the King.
We see all the elders and overseers Paul appointed as acting in persona Christi, and all those they appointed after them in an authoritive lineage through the laying on of hands from the Apostles.
Jesus gave the power to forgive and retain sin to the Apostles who passed this power down to others through the laying on of hands. To minister and shepherd all Christians down the ages.
So for us, Confession is not to a man, but to Christ who is ministering through His ambassadors.
We believe that when we go to the priest /Apostolic Successor like Timothy or Titus, we are going to Jesus.
We see them as Christ’s ambassadors and ministers, but in the sacrament of confession we believe that it is Jesus Himself hearing our confession being spiritually present in them.
Spiritually, we are confessing to Jesus Himself, not to a man.
As Paul said “ forgave it I in the Person of Christ “
Paul forgave sin in the Person of Christ.
Persona Christi is the term we use to describe it.
The sheriff arrests a man in the Person of the King, it’s the same as if the King himself arrested the guy. The sheriff has all the Authority of the King invested in him to act for the King.
We see all the elders and overseers Paul appointed as acting in persona Christi, and all those they appointed after them in an authoritive lineage through the laying on of hands from the Apostles.
Jesus gave the power to forgive and retain sin to the Apostles who passed this power down to others through the laying on of hands. To minister and shepherd all Christians down the ages.
So for us, Confession is not to a man, but to Christ who is ministering through His ambassadors.
It's a totally different world, Cathode. I don't see the Catholic Church and its practices anywhere in the Scripture.
Paul was the master builder and he never explained anything that can even be compared to the acts of Catholicism.
It's a totally different world, Cathode. I don't see the Catholic Church and its practices anywhere in the Scripture.
Paul was the master builder and he never explained anything that can even be compared to the acts of Catholicism.
You have been trained to interpret scripture differently to the ancient Apostolic interpretation of Scripture.
Your interpretation of scripture doesn’t go back to the Apostles, it is one of the many new interpretations founded by men in Protestantism, who aren’t in agreement even among themselves as to the meaning of scripture.
This is the reality.
Your interpretations and doctrines are founded by men from the 1500s and 1600s and possibly 1800s if you are a rapture believer.
These are human doctrines based on human interpretations of scripture, not the singular interpretation of Scripture the Apostles handed down.
None of these human founded traditions had anything to do with the Bible, the Bible is totally from the Catholic Church.
Protestantism traded the Apostles understanding and interpretation of Scripture for thousands of conflicting human interpretations of scripture that are traditions of men.
When you reject Baptismal Regeneration you reject the ancient Apostles teaching and replace the Apostles with Zwingli who was the first to teach that Baptism was only symbolic not salvific.
It’s the rejection of the Apostles and making Zwingli a new apostle preaching a different gospel and doctrine of men.
So being of this human tradition, the ancient Apostolic understanding of Scripture is strange to you.
You have been trained to interpret scripture differently to the ancient Apostolic interpretation of Scripture.
Your interpretation of scripture doesn’t go back to the Apostles, it is one of the many new interpretations founded by men in Protestantism, who aren’t in agreement even among themselves as to the meaning of scripture.
This is the reality.
Your interpretations and doctrines are founded by men from the 1500s and 1600s and possibly 1800s if you are a rapture believer.
These are human doctrines based on human interpretations of scripture, not the singular interpretation of Scripture the Apostles handed down.
None of these human founded traditions had anything to do with the Bible, the Bible is totally from the Catholic Church.
Protestantism traded the Apostles understanding and interpretation of Scripture for thousands of conflicting human interpretations of scripture that are traditions of men.
When you reject Baptismal Regeneration you reject the ancient Apostles teaching and replace the Apostles with Zwingli who was the first to teach that Baptism was only symbolic not salvific.
It’s the rejection of the Apostles and making Zwingli a new apostle preaching a different gospel and doctrine of men.
So being of this human tradition, the ancient Apostolic understanding of Scripture is strange to you.
No, I just reject Catholicism, with good reason.
No, I just reject Catholicism, with good reason.
Notice how all the ancient fathers interpret Jesus words in scripture as born again Baptismal Regeneration, being born again of water and Spirit.
These were all the heads of all the Churches for the first 1500 years.
Ask yourself why your interpretation of this scripture is different ?
When did your interpretation come along in Christian history?
If we both went back to these ancient Christian Church leaders, would your interpretations of scripture and doctrines be inline with theirs, or would mine.
I could go back and share exactly the same interpretation of scripture and doctrines and faith as the ancient Christians.
You couldn’t even go back 500 years to the founder of “Bible alone”, Luther and share the same interpretation, doctrine and belief as him. He would burn you at the stake.
Do you see how bad the cascade of human interpretations of scripture are, they alienate you not just from your founders, but even further from the ancient interpretation of Scripture.
Notice how all the ancient fathers interpret Jesus words in scripture as born again Baptismal Regeneration, being born again of water and Spirit.
These were all the heads of all the Churches for the first 1500 years.
Ask yourself why your interpretation of this scripture is different ?
When did your interpretation come along in Christian history?
If we both went back to these ancient Christian Church leaders, would your interpretations of scripture and doctrines be inline with theirs, or would mine.
I could go back and share exactly the same interpretation of scripture and doctrines and faith as the ancient Christians.
You couldn’t even go back 500 years to the founder of “Bible alone”, Luther and share the same interpretation, doctrine and belief as him. He would burn you at the stake.
Do you see how bad the cascade of human interpretations of scripture are, they alienate you not just from your founders, but even further from the ancient interpretation of Scripture.
I went back almost 2000 years to Paul, I don't need the in-between.
I went back almost 2000 years to Paul, I don't need the in-between.
Paul doesn’t mean what you think he means.
Peter warns people about Paul’s writings.
“He writes this way in all his letters, speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.”
Paul is precisely where Protestantism went wrong, misinterpreting Paul’s writings.
It is at the point of interpretation that people find destruction.
Protestants totally ignored Peters warning, thinking it didn’t apply to them. Private interpreters are the ignorant and unstable by their very nature.
Paul doesn’t mean what you think he means.
Peter warns people about Paul’s writings.
“He writes this way in all his letters, speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.”
Paul is precisely where Protestantism went wrong, misinterpreting Paul’s writings.
It is at the point of interpretation that people find destruction.
Protestants totally ignored Peters warning, thinking it didn’t apply to them. Private interpreters are the ignorant and unstable by their very nature.
The Catholics never cease to amaze me! They ignore Paul and accuse us of ignoring Peter.
But we know why you ignore Paul, he doesn't support the cause for the home team, in fact, he takes target practice at it.
The Catholics never cease to amaze me! They ignore Paul and accuse us of ignoring Peter.
But we know why you ignore Paul, he doesn't support the cause for the home team, in fact, he takes target practice at it.
We don’t ignore Paul or any Apostle, your interpretations of scripture are in error.
Catholic interpretation of Scripture has been the same for way over a thousand years before Protestants or Baptist’s existed.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.