Differences between Rapture and Second Coming

KUWN said:

At the Rapture:
1. Christ comes FOR His own in the air
2. All believers are translated into new bodies
3. Christians are taken to the Father's House
4. There is no judgment on the earth
5. The Church will be in Heaven
6. It is an imminent occurrence
7. There are no signs preceding it
8. It affects believers only
9. It is a time of joy
10. it occurs before the day of Wrath
11. No mention of Satan
12. The Judgment Seat of Christ happens next
13. There is the marriage of the Lamb
14. Only Christ's own will see him
15. The Tribulation begins

At the Second Coming:
1. Christ comes WITH his own
2. No Translation of bodies
3. resurrected saints remain on earth
4. Christ judges the inhabitants of the earth
5. Christ sets up his kingdom on earth
6. It can not occur until the seven-year Trib period
7. The are numerous signs preceding it
8. It affects all humanity
9. It is a time of mourning
10. It occurs after the Tribulation
11. Satan is bound in abyss 1,000 years
12. No judgment seat of Christ
13. His bride descends with him to earth
14. Every eye will see him
15. The millennial reign of Christ begins

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Is not according to the word of God.

KUWN said:

Maybe this will help you see what I am talking about. Try to reconcile this chart. It is self-explanatory.

At the Rapture:
1. Christ comes FOR His own in the air

Click to expand...

"Air" has nothing to do with the physical espace. Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth? -> You should know that GOD is he that sits upon the circle of the earth.

2Thessalonians 1:7-10
7 And to you who are troubled(Acts 14:22) rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven(heaven?Ephesians 1:3-10, and so on, take a look) with His mighty angels->(angels? Luke 20:35-36)

8 In flaming FIRE taking vengeance on them that know not GOD, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the PRESENCE of the Lord (including Michael, the archangel-Daniel 12:1-3), and from the Glory of His Power;

10 When JESUS shall come to be glorified in His saints(the true believers) , and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that Day.-> (the seventh and last Day, -> the Lords"s Day, or seventh and last millennium)

KUWN said:

2. All believers are translated into new bodies

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No, the believers will be transformed and so changed->(Luke 20:35-36), at the last trump->Revelation 11:15-18, for the Trumpet shall sound-> Daniel 12:1-3 combined with 1Thessalonians 4:16 and 15, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed, for this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when THIS CORRUPTIBLE shall have put on incorruption(BE CHANGED), and THIS MORTAL shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.->
Understand: -> Philippians 3:20-21-> 20 For our conversation is in heaven(heaven? Ephesians 1:3-10); from whence also (exactly from this heaven where we are for now), also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: -> Are you looking ? 21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body, according to the working whereby He is able even to subdue all things unto Himself.-> Matthew 28:18, take a look, and believe.

KUWN said:

3. Christians are taken to the Father's House

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John 14:1-3 ->1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in GOD, believe also in Me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I Am, THERE ye may be also. -> Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth, said JESUS:->Matthew 5:5.->And hast made us unto our GOD kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth-Revelation 5:10. -> It's it.

KUWN said:

4. There is no judgment on the earth

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Even thus shall it be in when the Son of man manifest Himself. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven(brimstone?Isaiah 30:33, take a look, from heaven-> Ephesians 1:3-10), and destroyed them all.
Be prepared or else get ready ->1Corinthians 3:12-15.

KUWN said:

5. The Church will be in Heaven

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Yes, but in which heaven, if the Church is already in an heaven? -> Ephesians 1:3-10. There are several heavens, the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and the heaven of the heavens. In which heaven is placed the current Church? Now, now, in the 2nd heaven, the 3rd heaven, that is the next, will be established from now on->2 Peter 3:13-14, among many other biblical references.
But now, even now, from now on, heaven and earth which are now shall pass away by the same Word, by the Word of the Devouring Fire, in this Day of Judgment and perdition of ungodly men. Seeing then that all these things shall be DISSOLVED / DISMANTLED as a violent IMPLOSION, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness?

Furthermore, the Dragon, the old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world, he is also in heaven, and it's urgent to cast him out of the heaven, understand? ->Revelation 12:9->9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Be prepared or else get ready.

Similarity between passing by the Red Sea and by the Red Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - PUT THIS IN YOUR MIND ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - THE RED SEA AND THE RED DRAGON ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I believe you know that the Hebrews had to cross the Red Sea, and walk through a desert, walk until they got to the Promised Land after 40 years of...

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KUWN said:

6. It is an imminent occurrence

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What really is imminent is the LITERAL fulfillment of Revelation 11:15-18 combinedwith 1Corinthians 15:24-28&51-55, among many other biblical references. Wake up, it's midnight.

KUWN said:

7. There are no signs preceding it

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Of course there are, there are several signs. The Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy...The apostasy is a great sign among many other signs.
2Thessalonians 2:3-5
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that Day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

The demonic apostasy is one of the terrible signs of this current time. ->Luke 18:8-> Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? -> 1Samuel 13:17-22, take a look.
Be prepared or else get ready

KUWN said:

Maybe this will help you see what I am talking about. Try to reconcile this chart. It is self-explanatory.

At the Rapture:
1. Christ comes FOR His own in the air
2. All believers are translated into new bodies
3. Christians are taken to the Father's House
4. There is no judgment on the earth
5. The Church will be in Heaven
6. It is an imminent occurrence
7. There are no signs preceding it
8. It affects believers only
9. It is a time of joy
10. it occurs before the day of Wrath
11. No mention of Satan
12. The Judgment Seat of Christ happens next
13. There is the marriage of the Lamb
14. Only Christ's own will see him
15. The Tribulation begins

At the Second Coming:
1. Christ comes WITH his own
2. No Translation of bodies
3. resurrected saints remain on earth
4. Christ judges the inhabitants of the earth
5. Christ sets up his kingdom on earth
6. It can not occur until the seven-year Trib period
7. The are numerous signs preceding it
8. It affects all humanity
9. It is a time of mourning
10. It occurs after the Tribulation
11. Satan is bound in abyss 1,000 years
12. No judgment seat of Christ
13. His bride descends with him to earth
14. Every eye will see him
15. The millennial reign of Christ begins

Click to expand...

And without Biblical support.

@KUWN,
The first resurrection takes place before the rapture.
Per 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

I think in prophesy we always have to use the literal

Prophesy is spoken in terms of future events with some detail (we may or may not be given all the detail

We know Jesus was born of a virgin
we know he was born in Bethlehem
when know the time of his arrival in literal years (after 69 weeks Dan 9)
we know how he would come (lowly and riding on a donkey)
we know the things he would do when he came

using precidence. We must interpret prophecy that has not occurred yet in the same way.

Also. God gives prophecy for a reason. So the people know. He said it.. and they know it is from him

if he says there will be 144000 jews sent out as evangelists.. Well by Golly there should be 144000. otherwise we can not say the prophesy is fulfilled.

37818 said:

Per 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, the rapture is after the first resurrection.

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are they not the same event?,the dead are taken up first. then those alive will be caught up (raptured) after.

Eternally Grateful said:

are they not the same event?,the dead are taken up first. then those alive will be caught up (raptured) after.

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In that the resurrection presedes the rapture.
1 John 3:2.

37818 said:

In that the resurrection presedes the rapture.
1 John 3:2.

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Yes, I see your point now. thank you!! I agree

37818 said:

@KUWN,
The first resurrection takes place before the rapture.
Per 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Click to expand...

The first resurrection is a series of resurrections per 1 Cor 15, each in their own order. Christ is the first one to be resurrected.

Oseas3 said:

"Air" has nothing to do with the physical espace. Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth? -> You should know that GOD is he that sits upon the circle of the earth.

2Thessalonians 1:7-10
7 And to you who are troubled(Acts 14:22) rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven(heaven?Ephesians 1:3-10, and so on, take a look) with His mighty angels->(angels? Luke 20:35-36)

8 In flaming FIRE taking vengeance on them that know not GOD, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the PRESENCE of the Lord (including Michael, the archangel-Daniel 12:1-3), and from the Glory of His Power;

10 When JESUS shall come to be glorified in His saints(the true believers) , and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that Day.-> (the seventh and last Day, -> the Lords"s Day, or seventh and last millennium)

No, the believers will be transformed and so changed->(Luke 20:35-36), at the last trump->Revelation 11:15-18, for the Trumpet shall sound-> Daniel 12:1-3 combined with 1Thessalonians 4:16 and 15, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed, for this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when THIS CORRUPTIBLE shall have put on incorruption(BE CHANGED), and THIS MORTAL shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.->
Understand: -> Philippians 3:20-21-> 20 For our conversation is in heaven(heaven? Ephesians 1:3-10); from whence also (exactly from this heaven where we are for now), also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: -> Are you looking ? 21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body, according to the working whereby He is able even to subdue all things unto Himself.-> Matthew 28:18, take a look, and believe.

John 14:1-3 ->1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in GOD, believe also in Me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I Am, THERE ye may be also. -> Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth, said JESUS:->Matthew 5:5.->And hast made us unto our GOD kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth-Revelation 5:10. -> It's it.

Even thus shall it be in when the Son of man manifest Himself. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven(brimstone?Isaiah 30:33, take a look, from heaven-> Ephesians 1:3-10), and destroyed them all.
Be prepared or else get ready ->1Corinthians 3:12-15.

Yes, but in which heaven, if the Church is already in an heaven? -> Ephesians 1:3-10. There are several heavens, the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and the heaven of the heavens. In which heaven is placed the current Church? Now, now, in the 2nd heaven, the 3rd heaven, that is the next, will be established from now on->2 Peter 3:13-14, among many other biblical references.
But now, even now, from now on, heaven and earth which are now shall pass away by the same Word, by the Word of the Devouring Fire, in this Day of Judgment and perdition of ungodly men. Seeing then that all these things shall be DISSOLVED / DISMANTLED as a violent IMPLOSION, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness?

Furthermore, the Dragon, the old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world, he is also in heaven, and it's urgent to cast him out of the heaven, understand? ->Revelation 12:9->9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Be prepared or else get ready.

Similarity between passing by the Red Sea and by the Red Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - PUT THIS IN YOUR MIND ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - THE RED SEA AND THE RED DRAGON ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I believe you know that the Hebrews had to cross the Red Sea, and walk through a desert, walk until they got to the Promised Land after 40 years of...

purebibleforum.com

What really is imminent is the LITERAL fulfillment of Revelation 11:15-18 combinedwith 1Corinthians 15:24-28&51-55, among many other biblical references. Wake up, it's midnight.

Of course there are, there are several signs. The Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy...The apostasy is a great sign among many other signs.
2Thessalonians 2:3-5
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that Day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

The demonic apostasy is one of the terrible signs of this current time. ->Luke 18:8-> Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? -> 1Samuel 13:17-22, take a look.
Be prepared or else get ready

Click to expand...

37818 said:

@KUWN,
The first resurrection takes place before the rapture.
Per 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

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I really am not trying to be disrespectful, but your response to this is that of a freshman in Christ. I have never seen such a convoluted hodgepodge attempt at presenting one's theology. You have no concept of Dispensational theology. But more than all this, you show no signs of interacting with scholarly thought. I know you will have a hay day responding to me. but I have to be honest. I was hoping I could respond to anyone's reply but I could not follow your train of thought. Forgive me if you are offended. I am just very frustrated trying to get serious bible students who have thought through the issues and have studied their butts off.

KUWN said:

The first resurrection is a series of resurrections per 1 Cor 15, each in their own order. Christ is the first one to be resurrected.

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yes.

But in context of what @37818 said. The first resurrection of saints occurs before those who are alive are "caught up" raptured?

Rapture is a Latin word, which literally means to be "caught up"

KUWN said:

The first resurrection is a series of resurrections per 1 Cor 15, each in their own order. Christ is the first one to be resurrected.

Click to expand...

You got it wrong.
There can only be one first resurrection, and it is prior to the rapture.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.
Revelation 20:6.

KUWN said:

I really am not trying to be disrespectful, but your response to this is that of a freshman in Christ. I have never seen such a convoluted hodgepodge attempt at presenting one's theology. You have no concept of Dispensational theology. But more than all this, you show no signs of interacting with scholarly thought. I know you will have a hay day responding to me. but I have to be honest. I was hoping I could respond to anyone's reply but I could not follow your train of thought. Forgive me if you are offended. I am just very frustrated trying to get serious bible students who have thought through the issues and have studied their butts off.

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I keep it simple.
There can only be one second appearing. Hebrews 9:28.
There can only be the one first resurrection of the two. Revelation 20:6.
Revelation 20:11-15.

KUWN said:

I really am not trying to be disrespectful, but your response to this is that of a freshman in Christ.

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Dont worry, you can speak what you can with all agressivity that you can be to use. I have a shield wherewith I shall be able to quench all the fiery darts, even of the wicked.

KUWN said:

I have never seen such a convoluted hodgepodge attempt at presenting one's theology. You have no concept of Dispensational theology. But more than all this, you show no signs of interacting with scholarly thought.

Click to expand...

Your thinking is from a human perspective, a stumblingblock, not from GOD's perspective. Matthew 16:22-23.

KUWN said:

I know you will have a hay day responding to me. but I have to be honest. I was hoping I could respond to anyone's reply but I could not follow your train of thought.

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Only now I saw your kind post, it because I was answering messages I received in this site, in another thread. So, only now I'm replying to this your post.

Actually, I do many posts in several sites, not only here, and also in the facebook, among many others, including discussion with Rabbis. .






among other sites and facebook

Revelation 11:15-18: -> 15 - The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come(GOD's WRATH), and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Be prepared or else get ready

KUWN said:

Forgive me if you are offended. I am just very frustrated trying to get serious bible students who have thought through the issues and have studied their butts off.

Click to expand...

I do not worry with any kind of offense or behaviour even the most evil it be. Have you never read what said my Lord JESUS? Matthew 5:11-12:
11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Matthew 12:30-32: My Lord JESUS said:
30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit shall not be forgiven unto men.

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

37818 said:

You got it wrong.
There can only be one first resurrection, and it is prior to the rapture.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.
Revelation 20:6.

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Please support your assertions by exegeting some of the passages you site. in other words, explain how 1 Thes 4:15-17 proves your point and disproves my point.

KUWN said:

Please support your assertions by exegeting some of the passages you site. in other words, explain how 1 Thes 4:15-17 proves your point and disproves my point.

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. . . For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not | precede | them which are asleep. . . .
The " shall not precede " in any way, go before " them who are asleep." In other words, not in anger way before the resurrection of the dead.

37818 said:

. . . For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not | precede | them which are asleep. . . .
The " shall not precede " in any way, go before " them who are asleep." In other words, not in anger way before the resurrection of the dead.

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Would you mind giving me the names of 3 or 4 authors you use in your studies?

KUWN said:

Would you mind giving me the names of 3 or 4 authors you use in your studies?

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My primary reference, Strong's Concorfance with Hebrew and Greek dictionary.

Been using that type of reference since 1968.

KUWN said:

For those who put the Rapture and the Second Coming at roughly the same time, I offer this list of contrasts between the Rapture and the Second Coming.

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According to Matthew 24 and Mark 13, they do indeed occur at the same time.

KUWN said:

At the Rapture:
1. Christ comes FOR His own in the air. Agreed
2. All believers are translated into new bodies Agreed.
3. Christians are taken to the Father's House I disagree.
4. There is no judgment on the earth I disagree, as according to Scripture there is a Judge that will rule with a "rod of iron" over the whole earth when He comes again.
5. The Church will be in Heaven I disagree, as Scripture states that we will rule and reign with Him. He will set up His rule, at Jerusalem, and sit on the throne of His father David for 1,000 years.
6. It is an imminent occurrence While I agree that, in spiritual terms, His coming is "imminent", according to Matthew 24 and Mark 13 it must be preceded by the appearing of Anti-Christ. When that occurs, we will then know that after 42 months, He will come again.
7. There are no signs preceding it I disagree. There are many signs preceding it, including the events described in Revelation being manifested on the earth during the 42 month Tribulation period.
8. It affects believers only It affects the entire world, either negatively, or, in the case of His own, positively and with great power.
9. It is a time of joy For Christ's sheep only, I would agree.
10. it occurs before the day of Wrath I agree.
11. No mention of Satan Satan is bound and will be cast into the bottomless pit for 1,000 years.
12. The Judgment Seat of Christ happens next According to God's word, the Judgement Seat of Christ happens after the 1,000 years are finished.
13. There is the marriage of the Lamb The marriage supper of the Lamb occurs while He is ruling and reigning from Jerusalem at the beginning of the 1,000 years.
14. Only Christ's own will see him All eyes shall se Him ( Revelation 1:7 ).
15. The Tribulation begins ( After Anti-Christ reveals himself, according to both Matthew 24 and Mark 13. )

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Please see my comments in bolded text above.

I'm not seeing the events you've described in the OP in the order that you've written them.
To me, Matthew 24 and Mark 13 are very specific about the timing of both the "Rapture" and His Second coming.

What the Lord tells His disciples acts as the framework for everything that is to happen up to and including when He comes again.

KUWN said:

At the Second Coming:

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Please see my comments in bolded and colored text below.

KUWN said:

1. Christ comes WITH his own Agreed.
2. No Translation of bodies I disagree. Believers receive their translated bodies, again and according to the Scriptures, at His second coming when they are caught up to meet Him, and as he is coming down.
3. resurrected saints remain on earth Please see my comment above.
4. Christ judges the inhabitants of the earth I agree.
5. Christ sets up his kingdom on earth Agreed.
6. It can not occur until the seven-year Trib period According to God's word, there is no 7 year Tribulation period. The last "week" of Daniel is 7 years long, but the Tribulation is 3.5 years long and starts with the abomination of desolation shown to Him by the Lord. Please see Matthew 24 an Mark 13.
7. The are numerous signs preceding it Agreed.
8. It affects all humanity Agreed.
9. It is a time of mourning For many, I agree. For God's children, it will be a time of great joy, when we are finally gathered to be with our Saviour.
10. It occurs after the Tribulation Agreed.
11. Satan is bound in abyss 1,000 years Again, I agree.
12. No judgment seat of Christ I agree.
13. His bride descends with him to earth Absolutely. All those in Heaven will join what few of His people are left alive on the earth, and be joined with Him when He comes down.
14. Every eye will see him I agree.
15. The millennial reign of Christ begins Again, I agree.

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To me, it seems you've a few things out of order based on what the Scriptures tell us as believers.
Please read what's been said about the end times again, and look carefully at what is being stated and when it is to happen.

I wish you well, and may God bless you in your studies.