Very interesting......Just now watching a clip on YouTube from Britain's Got Talent. The competitor in the clip and one of the judges both are wearing suits. So I guess a suit is good enough to show respect on a TV show, but not in God's house....
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Cultural Standards
- Thread starter JonC
- Start date
Requesting
Yep....requesting.
Too much information!!God made my best suit. Pictures will not be provided upon request.
Yes, requesting.
As a general rule, I dress casually. I feel like a monkey in a suit. Kind of like most men would feel wearing a kilt, maybe. I didn't grow up in the church, and never dressed up prior to salvation, and part of me felt kind of "fake" when I did so a few times, even when I preached.
Concerning drinking beer, I'm a teetotaler that has the occasional zero alcohol beer because I like a malt beverage. But as for Christians drinking alcohol, I'd say we have been given a mandate for self-control, and alcohol can take that away. We have been commanded to be filled with the Spirit, not drunken. Many will argue, "But I'm just having a little, I'm not getting drunk." The question is, is that true? How much alcohol does it take for our personalities/characters to be affected?
However, it isn't something I view as something to break fellowship over, unless they're getting drunk.
As to whether a glass or two will hurt our witness, for some, probably, for most, not real likely. Can it cause a brother to stumble? Sure. Wouldn't want that on my shoulders.
Speaking for myself, there was a time when I would have a beer when I went out. And yes, not drinking in excess can be true (I'd sip the beer, usually over the hour, and only have one). I just stopped liking the taste. Same with wine. A glass of wine would last well over an hour. But this was me being polite (I do not like wine).
The problem comes in when people do not have control over their drinking. This is not a problem with me. My problem is with sweets.
The wife and I are on a road trip vacation, and I'm at my sister's in Cincy. She has MSNBC on, some kind of news show. The two men both have suits/sport coats on, but only one has a necktie. Hmmm.
justapewfiller
New Member
Two true scenarios I will share.. Warning in advance this may be a little long.
The first, a group of teens from one of the poorer, "bad" sections of town became interested as the results of an outreach ministry. For all of these kids, they had never set foot in a church before. To say their culture was very different from the church's would be an understatement.
They arrived by bus for their first church visit. One of the girls was stopped and berated by one of the church ladies because she was wearing shorts. It was a bad scene. To cut to the chase. The girl meant no offense she simply did not know. But, she never attended again. It did cause a huge ruckus in the church with one camp being firmly in the "That's unacceptable and will not be tolerated under any circumstances!" vs the other camp of, "She did not know and now she never will! We've not only lost the chance to teach her what is acceptable and what is not, we have lost the chance to share the Gospel with her!" For what it is worth, I fell into the 2nd camp. I do realize the ideal thing would have been to have given the teens a list of "what is ok to wear" ahead of time. But, hindsight is often 20-20 eh?
The 2nd, the pastor left the church I was attending. We were a small Baptist church. When I say small I mean maybe 10 on Sunday morning. Except for myself and Mrs. Filler the congregation was mostly 70+ yo. The church certainly did not want to die, they wanted more people to attend. However, ummm..how to say this... they had very rigid views on what was acceptable with regard to almost everything. But, they were also good God loving people.
I arranged to meet with the pastor of nearby church that was doing well. Both the pastor and the church were well respected by the little church I was attending. I really wanted to help our little church and sought his wisdom. He listened and asked questions. In the end he said...
"There are Principals and there are preferences. Principals are just that. They are your principals. They don't change." *He laid his hand on the Bible on the desk and said.."This. *he pats his hand on the Bible*. "These are your Principals. They don't change."
Then he leans back.
"Now preferences. That is just what you like. They don't mean a hill of beans as long as they don't go against your principals. (he pats the Bible again). In a worldly setting we may like different sports teams. That doesn't make either of us wrong. In a church setting, it may mean do I wear a suit or not when I deliver Sunday's sermon. It will really upset some people if I do not, but that this just their preference! It really doesn't matter if I wear a jacket and tie or not. That is just one example and I could go on listing many but you get the idea."
He continued, "Now, where a lot of Christians and churches, in particular older Christians and smaller older churches, get in trouble is they get confused. They get confused because they have their preferences met and catered to for so long that hey have became convinced that their preferences are Principals. Then they become very distraught when it becomes harder and harder to find others that line up with whatever preferences they hold."
To finish up he added, "To keep that from happening here I change something that doesn't matter every so often. I may preach in a jacket and tie most times. But, sometimes I'm going to preach without one. Every so often, Sunday school rooms are going to change. Maybe a more modern song is done during worship every now and then. We may do some program a little differently or have different people doing it from time to time. It is honestly a lot of work. It would be easier just to keep everything the same all the time. But, I do it so my congregation won't get confused and start believing their preferences are principals. "
The first, a group of teens from one of the poorer, "bad" sections of town became interested as the results of an outreach ministry. For all of these kids, they had never set foot in a church before. To say their culture was very different from the church's would be an understatement.
They arrived by bus for their first church visit. One of the girls was stopped and berated by one of the church ladies because she was wearing shorts. It was a bad scene. To cut to the chase. The girl meant no offense she simply did not know. But, she never attended again. It did cause a huge ruckus in the church with one camp being firmly in the "That's unacceptable and will not be tolerated under any circumstances!" vs the other camp of, "She did not know and now she never will! We've not only lost the chance to teach her what is acceptable and what is not, we have lost the chance to share the Gospel with her!" For what it is worth, I fell into the 2nd camp. I do realize the ideal thing would have been to have given the teens a list of "what is ok to wear" ahead of time. But, hindsight is often 20-20 eh?
The 2nd, the pastor left the church I was attending. We were a small Baptist church. When I say small I mean maybe 10 on Sunday morning. Except for myself and Mrs. Filler the congregation was mostly 70+ yo. The church certainly did not want to die, they wanted more people to attend. However, ummm..how to say this... they had very rigid views on what was acceptable with regard to almost everything. But, they were also good God loving people.
I arranged to meet with the pastor of nearby church that was doing well. Both the pastor and the church were well respected by the little church I was attending. I really wanted to help our little church and sought his wisdom. He listened and asked questions. In the end he said...
"There are Principals and there are preferences. Principals are just that. They are your principals. They don't change." *He laid his hand on the Bible on the desk and said.."This. *he pats his hand on the Bible*. "These are your Principals. They don't change."
Then he leans back.
"Now preferences. That is just what you like. They don't mean a hill of beans as long as they don't go against your principals. (he pats the Bible again). In a worldly setting we may like different sports teams. That doesn't make either of us wrong. In a church setting, it may mean do I wear a suit or not when I deliver Sunday's sermon. It will really upset some people if I do not, but that this just their preference! It really doesn't matter if I wear a jacket and tie or not. That is just one example and I could go on listing many but you get the idea."
He continued, "Now, where a lot of Christians and churches, in particular older Christians and smaller older churches, get in trouble is they get confused. They get confused because they have their preferences met and catered to for so long that hey have became convinced that their preferences are Principals. Then they become very distraught when it becomes harder and harder to find others that line up with whatever preferences they hold."
To finish up he added, "To keep that from happening here I change something that doesn't matter every so often. I may preach in a jacket and tie most times. But, sometimes I'm going to preach without one. Every so often, Sunday school rooms are going to change. Maybe a more modern song is done during worship every now and then. We may do some program a little differently or have different people doing it from time to time. It is honestly a lot of work. It would be easier just to keep everything the same all the time. But, I do it so my congregation won't get confused and start believing their preferences are principals. "
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@justapewfiller
For years I had bought into the sorrow of churches closing their doors. I still am sorrowful, but with a different understanding. I have witnessed churches growing and a newer generation being discipled and discipling others. I have seen God working in His church. But these growing churches are the ones the dying churches point at as examples of music not to play, clothes not to wear, etc.
We had one of these dying churches up the road from us. This was one of the 1st churches we visited when we moved here. Great people. And people who wanted their church to grow, for God to use them in the community as He did decades ago. But the congregation was 60+ years old. No middle aged members. No youth. No children.
They ended up blending with anither church (a satellite type church...which I am not fond of). The pastor stepped down and remained in the congregatiin, teaching older adults. The church tripled in size within 6 months. It is still growing, has a good youth program.
The pastor had recognized that the church had stopped identifying with the people in the community (to include Christians in the community). He did not know how to move forward, but did not want to bevome an obstacle.
I have found that those who focus on dying churches are in reality morning their traditions and preferences becoming antiquated and no longer relevant. Very few younger people today view wearing a suit as showing respect. Very few consider solemn hymns superior as worship music. More view a large pulpit as a barrier rather than necessity.
Churches die for a reason. Many, I believe, have lost their First Love and instead focus on traditionalism, longing for a bygone age that will never return.
God grows churches as well. And just seeing what He us doing in the lives of younger people is amazing.
What does this mean for Christians in their 50's (like me). It means I learn new songs. I learn to appreciate young people using their gifts to play the guitar and drums in worship. I expect few, if any, to wear ties and jackets. I get to read a lot of Christian t-shirts these guys use as "conversation starters" in witnessing to others.
And yes....in some events, often at my home, I have to put up with Christian rap (or hip hop....whatever it is called). And young people learning to play worship songs on the drums upstairs (while I try to watch tv).
But I figured it out. It is not about me.
For years I had bought into the sorrow of churches closing their doors. I still am sorrowful, but with a different understanding. I have witnessed churches growing and a newer generation being discipled and discipling others. I have seen God working in His church. But these growing churches are the ones the dying churches point at as examples of music not to play, clothes not to wear, etc.
We had one of these dying churches up the road from us. This was one of the 1st churches we visited when we moved here. Great people. And people who wanted their church to grow, for God to use them in the community as He did decades ago. But the congregation was 60+ years old. No middle aged members. No youth. No children.
They ended up blending with anither church (a satellite type church...which I am not fond of). The pastor stepped down and remained in the congregatiin, teaching older adults. The church tripled in size within 6 months. It is still growing, has a good youth program.
The pastor had recognized that the church had stopped identifying with the people in the community (to include Christians in the community). He did not know how to move forward, but did not want to bevome an obstacle.
I have found that those who focus on dying churches are in reality morning their traditions and preferences becoming antiquated and no longer relevant. Very few younger people today view wearing a suit as showing respect. Very few consider solemn hymns superior as worship music. More view a large pulpit as a barrier rather than necessity.
Churches die for a reason. Many, I believe, have lost their First Love and instead focus on traditionalism, longing for a bygone age that will never return.
God grows churches as well. And just seeing what He us doing in the lives of younger people is amazing.
What does this mean for Christians in their 50's (like me). It means I learn new songs. I learn to appreciate young people using their gifts to play the guitar and drums in worship. I expect few, if any, to wear ties and jackets. I get to read a lot of Christian t-shirts these guys use as "conversation starters" in witnessing to others.
And yes....in some events, often at my home, I have to put up with Christian rap (or hip hop....whatever it is called). And young people learning to play worship songs on the drums upstairs (while I try to watch tv).
But I figured it out. It is not about me.
Cool. You look like you are about to tell us a good story. Probably a murder/mystery.
I had three children married in 3 years and I love formal night on cruises so buy a customized tux was cheaper. Tailor was in my district where I was election judge (initializing all ballots) so he and his wife were friends and gave me great service.
This is oversimplification. What any church needs to grow is fostering relationships and winning souls through the power of the Holy Spirit. It is not the style of music, nor whether the pastor and deacons wear a suit or not, etc.
I have told how our church has a lot of folks wearing suits and nice dresses, but that is not what a church needs. It needs the power of God. The churches you are mentioning have not closed or whatever because they don't use CCM. They have closed because they have lost their burden for the lost and their walk with God. They no longer obey the Great Commission. They do not say "Come" to lost sinners as Rev. 22:17 says to.
Our church is completely traditional. We sing the old hymns, and some new ones that our staff have written in old style. The pastors and staff and ushers wear suits. We have a powerful, old style orchestra. We have a song leader, not a "worship team" doing professional numbers. We love "How Great Thou Art" and "Amazing Grace" from a hymnbook and many folks in the pews know how to sing parts, so it's beautiful.
But strangely (in your view), our church is vibrant and growing. We run around 500 and have people saved and baptized all the time! We disciple and teach everyone to. (I am currently discipling two.)
We just had VBS and several hundred of the church served the Lord in many different capacities, from parking to skits (me) to the July 4 parade (we had a float in 4 parades) to singing to the little kids (me & my guitar and team). We have very active soul-winning programs.
I refuse to admit that guitars and drums make for a welcoming service, and I play the guitar. What it takes is love for the lost, genuine concern and welcoming for each person who enters the church. If a church doesn't have a burden for the lost, it will die. If it does love the lost, and have a solid outreach program, it will grow. Why? Because Holy Spirit will be at work, leading believers and saving souls. It takes a revival spirit, a dependence on the Holy Spirit, a solid prayer life, and believers who are walking with God.
No, it's about the Gospel of Christ and the Holy Spirit enabling. It's not about methods or tradition or a new way of singing. It's about prevailing prayer. So many churches, traditional or modern, no longer have a prayer meeting. If either one abandons prayer, it will die. Our church has corporate prayer every Wednesday night with a good crowd. We have men's and youth prayer meetings. We have a Sunday occasionally with fasting and prayer for 3-4 hours after the morning service.
Here's the thing. The main purpose of a church service and the pastoral staff is not to see people saved. You read that right. The Bible clearly teaches that the leadership of church leadership is not to do the work themselves, but to train the believers to do God's work. A church is to have every member ministry, not simply staff ministry with folks in the pews enjoying the service.
Eph. 4:11-12. "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:"
It is an oversimplification, but only because I am focusing on one aspect (shifts in culture resulting in an inability for some churches to identify in a meaningful way the gospel message to a generation). The gospel is still spead, and God is still working, just through other means.
I agree that the church service is for equipping the saints rather than reaching the lost directy. This is one reason I have no problems with churches adhering to traditions and customs thar are somewhat generational norms. It is also one reason that I do not see a major issue with some churches dying or aging along with cultural norms.
Just as many struggle with contemporary worship music, many who do not struggle with identifying with older hymns. People need to worship in a meaningful way, a manner in which they identify, a way that they can legitimately offer worship. For some this is hymns. For others this is more contemporary.
Same with dress, appearance of the sanctuary, use of a pulpit, instruments, etc.
But people seem so concerned about "traditional" churches dying out that they do not recognize what God is doing with a younger generation of believers.
justapewfiller
New Member
Your confidence in your insight that you obviously feel you know exactly what my views are from just two scenarios is amazing! Confidence is a wonderful trait.
I am happy your traditional church is doing very well. I really am. I also think it is an over simplification to assume that traditional is the only way to go. But, I do not know if you believe that or not.
However, you are correct, in part, about the small church that I mentioned. They had not lost their love of God. They hadn't really lost their care for the lost. But, over the years, they became very "inward focused" is the best way I can put it.
They did not close, and I did not say that they did.
After about 2 years they finally found a pastor that suited them to a T. He is a retired theology professor that lines up with all of the congregation's principles and preferences. The chruch hasn't exactly grown, but they are able to maintain a status-quo and that is perfectly OK. As I said, they are good, God-loving people and I am happy they are surviving and have a church just like they enjoy. I really do wish them all the best.
One thing that that does trouble me a bit. You seem very defensive of traditional church worship and I hope you do not feel as though I was attacking it. If it is working for you and your church that is wonderful!
However, this is a thread about cultural standards. I was merely pointing out that both traditional and non-traditional are preferences...not principles. Either tradtional or non-traditional can work. I do admit to pointing out (and believing) that a person getting too stuck, for too long, on their own preferences can lead to that person thinking thier preferences are really principals and the only way to go, and thus that different preferences are somehow "bad" or "wrong".
I have a theory. It goes something like this. Its ok for someone to like traditional church worship (suits, old style hymns, etc). However, it also ok for someone to have cultural differences where they like a more modern worship (more casual clothes, more modern music, etc). Liking one or the other doesn't make either person less of a Christian, nor does it make them a bad person, and either preference is perfectly ok. Its a preference - not a principal. As you mentioned, it is if the church, is Biblically sound, has the power of God, equips the saints, follows the Great Commision that is important, these are are examples of principals. That's my theory.