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Cultural Standards

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
On a different thread I had a discussion with @John of Japan about proper dress for attending church. I started a thread asking how people dressed when attending a service. This topic bleeds into another more general topic, one that piques my curiosity.

I believe that much of our customs arise from tradition and culture but often are not (or no longer are) shared within society as a whole. This does not mean by any means that these customs and standards are wrong in and of themselves, although it may be wrong to impose on other people.

For example, a man may wear a suit to church as an act of worship or as an expression of self-righteousness. A drummer may play the drums in church as an act of worship or to receive praise for his ability. A man may dress casually as an act of worship, or to appeal to certain people.

Those who do not share the custom being practice may often, and erroneously, think the worse. A man wearing a suit is doing so to elevate himself. The drummer is seeking praise. The man dressing casually is being disrespectful and looking for approval.

I currently have chosen to attend a church that meets at a school. It is a very active church, and God is using the congregation in the community. But I know people who believe that this is inappropriate because a school cafeteria is not a “sacred space” in their valuation.

I’ve attended churches that had a permanent structure but the sanctuary was set up to be rearranged as needed. It did not look like a traditional sanctuary. Chairs replaced pews. This became a major issue with some members as they believed the absence of pews and use of interlocking chairs was dishonoring to God.

Ultimately my point is that there are two sides to these traditions. There is often a legitimate reason for holding a custom, but there is also a legitimate counter position. I believe that we need to worship in spirit and truth, and this worship may not look exactly the same between congregations. But we also believe that we may need to consider counter-views when we become tempted to suggest our preferences and practices to other people.


@John of Japan mentioned what is a good example, although I am not sure that it was a serious one, that men should keep their knees covered.

This is actually a cultural standard in places (men should not expose their elbows or knees in public as this is disrespectful). So a congregation may hold this view, and out of respect never expose their knees or elbows. I believe this is absolutely appropriate for that group of people. But I believe imposing this as a standard of respect onto other people is problematic (thinking that a man wearing a short sleeved shirt to church is disrespecting God would be a false assumption and a projection of social norms onto another culture).
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
This is an issue for me in one area (probably a few areas), and that is raising hands in worship. Please do not misunderstand me. I do not believe it is wrong to raise hands in worship. I believe it is good, if it is in spirit and truth. But I have to catch myself from thinking that it is out of a false sense of piety.

The problem is not with people who raise their hands in worship. In truth, the problem has nothing to do with these people. The problem is with me. It is something foreign to my customs, my experiences. I have been led to tears, very much moved by the Spirit. But I have not been led to raise my hands. It is an expression of worship that is foreign to me. So I am tempted to assume the worst and I have to pull back on that assumption.
 

John of Japan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The best Scripture for this issue, IMO, is 1 Cor. 10:32, "Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God." So the standard for a Christian in many of these issues is to avoid giving offense to the people in the culture one is trying to reach (Context: 1 Cor. 9:19-22). This means that, for example, in Japan I will not stick my chopsticks vertically in the rice, for that means "death." And I will use respect language ("honorifics") towards people I have just met. I heard of a foreigner who got in a taxi and said, "Take me to...." However, he said it in plain Japanese, much like talking to an underling or child. The cab driver said, "Get out of my cab!"

Having said that, there are cultural things that are biblically wrong, whether or not they are culturally wrong. In Japan, I never participated in the August "Bon Festival," because it is a Buddhist festival honoring the souls of the dead, entertaining them before they return to Hell! That would be idolatrous. I remember one teenager who trusted Christ through one of my tracts. She wrote me that she shouldn't go through the torii gate (that pretty red gate in Japan) because to do so would be a Shinto prayer. I hadn't said a word about that, but the Holy Spirit taught her!
 

Dr. Bob

Administrator
Administrator
I am a Boomer.
I was taught to wear "Sunday clothes" - the best I had - to worship. Always kept clean and neat. Better than school clothes. Waaay better than play clothes or work clothes. Way WAY better than beach/casual half-nekkid clothes.
I was taught to be respectful and not make church about "me", but about Him. No clapping, hand raising, Pentecostal jibberish actions. Stand when told to stand, sit when told to sit, kneel when told to kneel. Soft "amen" with the speaker at end of prayer.
I was taught that piano and organ are okay, but other instruments just for special music. Vocal music is best, with words so listener can go past performance to understand message of lyrics
I was taught women were modest in dresses wearing gloves and hats in church. Little makeup and NO pierced ears. Not ostentatious demeanor in rings or jewelry to draw attention, envy of other women or draw lust in men.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
The best Scripture for this issue, IMO, is 1 Cor. 10:32, "Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God." So the standard for a Christian in many of these issues is to avoid giving offense to the people in the culture one is trying to reach (Context: 1 Cor. 9:19-22). This means that, for example, in Japan I will not stick my chopsticks vertically in the rice, for that means "death." And I will use respect language ("honorifics") towards people I have just met. I heard of a foreigner who got in a taxi and said, "Take me to...." However, he said it in plain Japanese, much like talking to an underling or child. The cab driver said, "Get out of my cab!"

Having said that, there are cultural things that are biblically wrong, whether or not they are culturally wrong. In Japan, I never participated in the August "Bon Festival," because it is a Buddhist festival honoring the souls of the dead, entertaining them before they return to Hell! That would be idolatrous. I remember one teenager who trusted Christ through one of my tracts. She wrote me that she shouldn't go through the torii gate (that pretty red gate in Japan) because to do so would be a Shinto prayer. I hadn't said a word about that, but the Holy Spirit taught her!
I agree to a point. We did not enter any temples in Japan (I can't say it woukd have bothered me to go in and see the architecture, but there was no way my son would enter).

I think of Paul's comment about eating food sacrificed to idols. It is ok depending on your conscious, unless it could cause a brother to stumble.

Today that can be applied many ways. What about drinking a beer or glass of wine? It is permissible, but is it adventatious? Will it hurt your witness or cause another to stumble?
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
I am a Boomer.
I was taught to wear "Sunday clothes" - the best I had - to worship. Always kept clean and neat. Better than school clothes. Waaay better than play clothes or work clothes. Way WAY better than beach/casual half-nekkid clothes.
I was taught to be respectful and not make church about "me", but about Him. No clapping, hand raising, Pentecostal jibberish actions. Stand when told to stand, sit when told to sit, kneel when told to kneel. Soft "amen" with the speaker at end of prayer.
I was taught that piano and organ are okay, but other instruments just for special music. Vocal music is best, with words so listener can go past performance to understand message of lyrics
I was taught women were modest in dresses wearing gloves and hats in church. Little makeup and NO pierced ears. Not ostentatious demeanor in rings or jewelry to draw attention, envy of other women or draw lust in men.
We always had to shine our shoes (the ones we only wore on Sunday) and have everything prepared on Saturday night for church. One thing that bothers me a little is men wearing caps inside church (or restaurants). Even though it no longer is disrespectful in our culture I still refrain from doing it.

I always liked the paint and organ ?even though the organ kinda makes me sleepy). Now I love watching the drummer and guitarist worship using their gifts. Especially the drummer...that has become a path for younger involvement in worship. It is important, IMHO, to allow others to worship God in an honest manner, abd now I actually prefer some of the more contemporary music (I see that younger generations identify with the message).

The harder oart, for me, is Christian rap or hip hop (my son's music). I can't deny that God uses it for His glory, but but it isn't my thing (with a few exceptions).

Years ago our church had a traditional hymn day. I looked forward to it. My son was going to hear and sing the songs I grew up with. That was the longest hour of my life. I still love those hymns, but mostly for nostalgia and reading the lyrics. I've been brainwashed into contemporary worship music!!!!
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Cultural Standards arise the traditions of the past, whether reflecting the Biblical "Law of Liberty" or simply the provincialism of the powerful.

What is the biblical basis for wearing our "Sunday Best?" To show deference to God or simply to fit in with what the rich and powerful wear?

Today, those in politics are slowly pulling away from wearing a necktie, not because it is archaic, but to appear to be common with those whose "dress code" does not include a tie.
 

Deacon

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I came from a congregation where the way a person dressed wasn't an issue.
An old guy in back wore a suit and tie each Sunday.
Many others wore loose casual; occasional you'd see shorts or baseball caps.
A few women did the head-covering thing; while others didn't cover up enough (imo).
It didn't seem to cause division, all groups would mingle together.

The church I've recently joined wears homogenously modern conservative apparel.

We live among Amish farms, I regularly pass a horse drawn buggies as I travel.
The Amish lifestyle has a strong cultural standards.

To church, the Amish men and boys wear white shirts, black suits and straw hats (even the little boys).
Women wear long, plain dresses and their hair bundled up under a bonnet.
They travel among various farms for their services on Sunday, which (I'm told) are given in Pennsylvania Dutch.

Some members in my church have Amish last names, (a Zook, a King and a Stolzfus are in my small group).
With their last names they are able to have a witness among the Amish community.
They tell me that some of the local Amish are believers, others not so.

Rob
 

Deena

New Member
I came from a congregation where the way a person dressed wasn't an issue.
An old guy in back wore a suit and tie each Sunday.
Many others wore loose casual; occasional you'd see shorts or baseball caps.
A few women did the head-covering thing; while others didn't cover up enough (imo).
It didn't seem to cause division, all groups would mingle together.

The church I've recently joined wears homogenously modern conservative apparel.

We live among Amish farms, I regularly pass a horse drawn buggies as I travel.
The Amish lifestyle has a strong cultural standards.

To church, the Amish men and boys wear white shirts, black suits and straw hats (even the little boys).
Women wear long, plain dresses and their hair bundled up under a bonnet.
They travel among various farms for their services on Sunday, which (I'm told) are given in Pennsylvania Dutch.

Some members in my church have Amish last names, (a Zook, a King and a Stolzfus are in my small group).
With their last names they are able to have a witness among the Amish community.
They tell me that some of the local Amish are believers, others not so.

Rob
I think we need to be aware of culture but overall, we've been warned about outward vanity. Business suits are really for business, not church, imho. That's how business suits fit into culture and the church is not to be a business. We are to refrain from doing business one day a week to rest, overall for most people. This represents working imho. God rested on the 7th day. However, there is no sin in wearing a suit so who am I to judge. All this is just my perception which means nothing.

But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart. 1 Samuel 16:7.
 

John of Japan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I agree to a point. We did not enter any temples in Japan (I can't say it woukd have bothered me to go in and see the architecture, but there was no way my son would enter).

I think of Paul's comment about eating food sacrificed to idols. It is ok depending on your conscious, unless it could cause a brother to stumble.
Simply going into a Buddhist temple or Shinto shrine is not what I am talking about. Actually participating in a pagan festival is idolatry. Simply going into their building is not. I've been in both a Buddhist temple (the mission director from the States wanted to see one) and a Shinto shrine.
Today that can be applied many ways. What about drinking a beer or glass of wine? It is permissible, but is it adventatious? Will it hurt your witness or cause another to stumble?
Permissible from whose opinion? Well, anyway, a king must not drink alcoholic beverages; that's clear from Scripture. And we are all kings and priests of God, are we not?
 

John of Japan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I think we need to be aware of culture but overall, we've been warned about outward vanity. Business suits are really for business, not church, imho. That's how business suits fit into culture and the church is not to be a business. We are to refrain from doing business one day a week to rest, overall for most people. This represents working imho. God rested on the 7th day. However, there is no sin in wearing a suit so who am I to judge. All this is just my perception which means nothing.

But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart. 1 Samuel 16:7.
Forgive me, but this is very odd. I can wear a suit for secular business, but not to show respect and honor for the God of the universe and His Son? Simply wearing what you call a "business suit" is not a sign you are doing business and not resting. You have a logical disjunct there.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Simply going into a Buddhist temple or Shinto shrine is not what I am talking about. Actually participating in a pagan festival is idolatry. Simply going into their building is not. I've been in both a Buddhist temple (the mission director from the States wanted to see one) and a Shinto shrine.

Permissible from whose opinion? Well, anyway, a king must not drink alcoholic beverages; that's clear from Scripture. And we are all kings and priests of God, are we not?
I think you missed my point. I would have gone into the temple to see the architecture. My son had no desire because it was a pagan temple. Neither of us thought it was technically wrong, but he did not want to give the appearance of acceptance and I did not want to refrain from supporting his conscience.

Permissible as Scripture does not prohibit having a glass of wine. We are priests (we are a priesthood of believers). My point is one who drinks a glass of wine at the expense of a brother is doing so not considering that brother. Same with Paul's point of eating meat dedicated to idols.

We need to think about one another.

Some believe tgey are showing respect to God by wearing a suit to church. They should wear a suit to church. Others believe they are showing respect to God by dressing as they do in "everyday" life, that dressing up is less than genuine. They should dress in accordance with their conscience.

Some believe it is disrespectful to show their knees and elbows. They should not show their knees and elbows.
Some believe it is disrespectful worship to us instruments. They shoukd not use instruments.
Some believe pepe are able to worship by playing instruments, that thos is why God gave them the gift.. They should play instruments.

People need to be more focused on God and uplifting the Bidy of Christ than they are in conforming others to their standard.
 
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