Being Atemporal, What Did God Know Before Creation?

Greetings to all my brothers in Christ. May God bring peace and grace to all here.

My inquiry has to do with, what did God know or plan before creation. Was it everything or was it only some things? Of curse a determinist will have a different perspective than a theist. But I think most would agree that God knows all things (1John 3:20). The debate is therefore only what does "all things" entail?

(1John 3:20 NKJV) 20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.

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I would like to present some verses to be considered and explained.

(Psa 139:16 NKJV) 16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When [as yet there were] none of them.

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In Psa 139:16, it says that "The days fashioned for me, when as yet there were none of the them." Is this an indication that God had knowledge and established the order of things before creation?

(Psa 139:4 ESV) 4 Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O LORD, you know it altogether.

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Does God know what we will say because He has "fashioned" the days (per Psa139:16)?

(Pro 16:4 NKJV) 4 The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

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If nothing else, does Proverbs 16:4 indicate that God knew before anything was made that there would be those who would choose wickedness?

(Pro 19:21 NKJV) 21 There are many plans in a man's heart, Nevertheless the LORD's counsel--that will stand.

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Does Proverbs 19:21, as well as Gen 50:20, present a dichotomy between man's plans and God's plans? And that God's plans before established would stand as what will take place?

(Pro 16:9 NKJV) 9 A man's heart plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.

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Does Proverbs 16:9 support Proverbs 19:21 and Genesis 50:20?


Some consideration from logic.
If something has purpose then the purpose of a thing's beginning is to lead to the purpose of that thing’s end. If a thing's beginning has a purpose to lead to that which is to be that thing's intended end, then all moments between that beginning and end purposely lead to that thing's end.

For example, if I envision an end and at the beginning I lay one domino on the table in a particular location, then all other domino between that beginning and intended end lead to that intended end. So, if a beginning of a thing has the purpose to lead to a particular end then all things between that beginning and end have the purpose of culminating toward that thing's end. Any variation, movement, misplacement, misangled placement and trajectory when falling can contribute to the final end not being reached. The dominos must be placed properly to have confidence that the final end, the final domino, will be reached.

What do you think about the verses above?


Keep seeking God's truth as if it were hidden treasure (Prov 2)

Paleouss said:

In Psa 139:16, it says that "The days fashioned for me, when as yet there were none of the them."

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" Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all [my members] were written, [which] in continuance were fashioned, when [as yet there was] none of them." ( Psalms 139:16, AV ).

In the "KJV", I see the above...
I have no idea where the translators of the NKJV came up with their rendition of it, except perhaps from another modern English translation like the NASB.
That said and keeping in mind that everything in italics was added by the translators of the AV for continuity and to help "fill out" the text, in English and without those italics it would read:

" Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all [] were written, [] in continuance were fashioned, when [] none of them."

Here I see David saying that the Lord ( from verse 1 ):
His eyes did see David's "substance" while it was not yet perfected / formed, and in His book all were written. In continuance ( to make continuous ) were fashioned ( or made ) when none of them existed.

In other words,
The Lord saw David's every detail even before He made him. In His book were all of those details written. Each and every detail of David ( before he ever existed ), was then put into motion by God.

Paleouss said:

Does God know what we will say because He has "fashioned" the days (per Psa139:16)?

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" For [there is] not a word in my tongue, [but], lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether." ( Psalms 139:4 ).

To get the context of this verse, we really should see all that David is telling us from what came before it...
That's what I would recommend the reader of this thread do.
For now, my understanding of it is this:

There is not a word that David would ever speak that the Lord did not already know.

Paleouss said:

If nothing else, does Proverbs 16:4 indicate that God knew before anything was made that there would be those who would choose wickedness?

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" The Lord hath made all [things] for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." ( Proverbs 16:4 )

To me, the words plainly state:

1) The Lord has made all things for Himself.
2) The Lord has made even the wicked for the day of evil ( calamity ).

Paleouss said:

Does Proverbs 19:21, as well as Gen 50:20, present a dichotomy between man's plans and God's plans? And that God's plans before established would stand as what will take place?

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" [There are] many devices in a man’s heart; nevertheless the counsel of the Lord, that shall stand." ( Proverbs 1921 ). <---- This tells me that, although there are many "devices" ( devisings, or plans ) in a man's heart, the Lord's counsel ( what He purposes ) is what shall stand or come to pass.

" But as for you, ye thought evil against me; [but] God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as [it is] this day, to save much people alive." ( Genesis 50:20 ) <------ Here I see that even though Joseph's brothers had meant for their actions against him to be to his hurt, the Lord meant that good would follow out of them and not the evil that his brothers had purposed.

To me there is no dichotomy, but rather a reinforcement of God's will being accomplished, instead of man's.

Paleouss said:

Does Proverbs 16:9 support Proverbs 19:21 and Genesis 50:20?

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Absolutely.

Paleouss said:

Some consideration from logic.
If something has purpose then the purpose of a thing's beginning is to lead to the purpose of that thing’s end. If a thing's beginning has a purpose to lead to that which is to be that thing's intended end, then all moments between that beginning and end purposely lead to that thing's end.

For example, if I envision an end and at the beginning I lay one domino on the table in a particular location, then all other domino between that beginning and intended end lead to that intended end. So, if a beginning of a thing has the purpose to lead to a particular end then all things between that beginning and end have the purpose of culminating toward that thing's end. Any variation, movement, misplacement, misangled placement and trajectory when falling can contribute to the final end not being reached. The dominos must be placed properly to have confidence that the final end, the final domino, will be reached.

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I agree.
That's why God's purposes, whether or not they are contrary to man's, are what actually come to pass...

Because He made the dominoes fall where they did, not us.

Paleouss said:

The debate is therefore only what does "all things" entail?

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To me, there is no debate.
"All things" ( where He says "all things" ) means exactly that...
All things.

To answer the question in the title of your thread, " ...What did God know before Creation?"

He knew everything.

Because God knows everything, He is able to make adjustments for the purpose of accomplishing His will.

Acts 5:3
But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

This is an interesting question regarding the will of God. It was Ananias’ heart that was filled, Satan that did the filling so did God set up the dominos for all this to happen?
No. God doesn’t tempt men, directly or indirectly.
God makes corrections. When people work their plans for their own lying benefit at the expense of the truth, we have an example of God making it so that people afterwards had a respect for the church and the work of God.

v13-14. And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them. And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.)

No gossip about how the people in the church are living double lives. Just an immediate correction that helped to keep the early church pure and remind us today that God is still the Judge of men.
It doesn’t tell us that God wanted Ananias and Sephira to lie.
Our simple finite minds have a difficult time understanding how an all powerful all knowing God can allow all of what happens without making the course correction to prevent them from happening. The fault is still with our reasoning. We allow for our “lesser” sins because we know we are sinners. But if God were Just, and without mercy, Adam wouldn’t have been around for a conversation about his sin. (This is my own limited perception of justice. Satan will receive justice and I find no mercy offered to him. In this, I recognize that my perception of what I think God would do without mercy is limited by a lack of knowledge of God’s thoughts.)
To use the car as an imperfect example, even though God knows when the tire will go flat, it doesn’t mean that there is no plan, (spare tire) and it doesn’t mean that God is not holding the steering wheel.
Our thoughts do not attain to the thoughts of God.
We see now through the glass “darkly.”
Our inability to comprehend God doesn’t impair Him in any way.

Ben1445 said:

Because God knows everything, He is able to make adjustments for the purpose of accomplishing His will.

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Greetings Ben. Thank you for responding to my OP. I have a few questions if you don't mind.

It would appear that your position is (1) God knows all things (without getting into a dispute of exactly what all things entails), (2) God allows a type of freedom of will and action [this seems implied, if I'm wrong please correct], (3a) God has a plan before creation, (3b) sets things in motion, (3c) then intervenes/influences/directs when He deems necessary or at His good pleasure, (4) His end is then accomplished.

It would seem for #1 and #2 to be compatible then God must know the free choices and actions of each individual under each given circumstance before creation. In this way, God is in control of all things, that is, even the free choice of individuals is controlled by knowing (a) what choice each would make under every given condition, and (b) being the ultimate orchestrator of the conditions.

If God knew all these things, it would seem only then could it be said the #3a, God has a plan before creation that can confidently be prophesied and accomplished. For if He doesn't know the contents between His beginning purpose and His ending purpose then it seems He would not be able to accurately predict much of anything.

Thank you for your time
Peace to you brother

Dave G said:

I agree.
That's why God's purposes, whether or not they are contrary to man's, are what actually come to pass...

Because He made the dominoes fall where they did, not us

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Greetings to you Dave G. Grace and peace to you and yours. Thank you for responding to my OP.

I would like to inquire into a couple of things if that is ok with you. You presented that God knew all things, provided verses and explanations (thank you).

If we look at Proverbs 19:21 and Genesis 50:20, we see a suggestion of God's will being done and the will of mankind being also done at the same time (in a way). Do you have any insight on how the two can be compatible?

In other words,
Joe desires and does commit adultery...
1. Joes's will is done. He desires to commit adult and acts on it.
2. and God's will is done.

Trying to keep the focus on two competing wills.

Thank you for your time brother
Keep seeking God's truth (Prov 2)

Paleouss said:

Greetings Ben. Thank you for responding to my OP. I have a few questions if you don't mind.

It would appear that your position is (1) God knows all things (without getting into a dispute of exactly what all things entails),

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Yes.

Paleouss said:

(2) God allows a type of freedom of will and action [this seems implied, if I'm wrong please correct],

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Still good.

Paleouss said:

(3a) God has a plan before creation, (3b) sets things in motion, (3c) then intervenes/influences/directs when He deems necessary or at His good pleasure,

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Without getting into how often that is in 3c, yes. That states it very well.

Paleouss said:

(4) His end is then accomplished.

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A good summary.

Paleouss said:

It would seem for #1 and #2 to be compatible then God must know the free choices and actions of each individual under each given circumstance before creation.

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I would say that He did.

Paleouss said:

In this way, God is in control of all things, that is, even the free choice of individuals is controlled by knowing

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I would interrupt here and say control is the wrong word because it removes the free will. Affect is the right word IMO because it allows for a free will, which we do have, and allows God the right and power to make adjustments to the world that may be against the will and mind of man but happen anyway.
(My choice of words is dictated by what I perceive as happening. It is incompatible to say someone is controlling your free choice. Because of this, I say that the way we describe what is happening must be as accurate as possible. I am not coming from a perspective of this is how I think it should be, rather, this is what I see. Since I don’t believe that we are living in a simulation, I don’t entertain the idea that I don’t have a free will but I think I do. )

Paleouss said:

(a) what choice each would make under every given condition, and (b) being the ultimate orchestrator of the conditions.

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So at some point we do get to the extent. What details are important. Is my choice of Cheerios or cornflakes orchestrated for me? If God is orchestrating all the details, then God has effectively chosen to make people decide to reject Him. Instead, what we find in Scripture is the unwillingness to override the wickedness of men in free will. God comes in the flesh and teaches men. Who can resist His wisdom? But His wisdom is hidden from them because they reject Him already. He could have convinced them easily, but their hearts were far from Him and He let them make their own choices.
“Today, if ye will hear His voice, harden not your hearts…”
We are not told if we have been enabled to hear Him, rather, if it is our will to hear Him.

Paleouss said:

If God knew all these things, it would seem only then could it be said the #3a, God has a plan before creation that can confidently be prophesied and accomplished. For if He doesn't know the contents between His beginning purpose and His ending purpose then it seems He would not be able to accurately predict much of anything.

Thank you for your time
Peace to you brother

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God is infinite. Our inability to comprehend what God is doing doesn’t mean that He is doing what we cannot comprehend.

Ecclesiastes 3:11
He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

Isaiah 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

It is clear that God had a plan before the foundation of the world.
If God knows my thoughts afar off, (before I think them), God is not bound by time. There is more to it than God determining what is going to happen. When my children are under me, I can choose to override the decisions of my children. I have that power. I cannot show them what will be tomorrow.
In the same fashion, God can give the battle to one nation or another and fight against men as He did for Israel in the conquest, and against Israel in judgment.
God can also show John the things that must be hereafter.
God knows the things that we need before we ask. I have heard multiple testimonies of people, especially missionaries, who have an immediate need that is met by packages that were sent months before the need was a thought. It isn’t good luck. God knows the future. These testimonies are examples of what Jesus taught when He said take no thought for the morrow. Our Heavenly Father knows what we need before we ask.

Paleouss said:

If we look at Proverbs 19:21 and Genesis 50:20, we see a suggestion of God's will being done and the will of mankind being also done at the same time (in a way).

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I'm not sure I'm following correctly...

A "suggestion" of God's will being done?
Perhaps I misunderstand the above;
But if not, where you seem to see a suggestion, I see a declaration.

In Genesis 50:20, for example, I also see the will of mankind being allowed to happen, but at the same time the Lord guiding the outcome.

Paleouss said:

Do you have any insight on how the two can be compatible?

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Sure...

By accepting the fact that God's will is done, whether or not our will as men goes along with it, or is contrary to it.
He has the final say on the outcome.

Paleouss said:

In other words,
Joe desires and does commit adultery...
1. Joes's will is done. He desires to commit adult and acts on it.
2. and God's will is done.

Trying to keep the focus on two competing wills.

Click to expand...

I agree.
With Joe, I see that:

1) God allowed him to commit adultery, and will then recompense him for it;
Unless he is one of the saved.

a) If saved, then whatever Joe did has been put away and the Lord Jesus has already answered for it.
It was God's will to forgive him.
b) If lost, then whatever Joe did has not been put away and the Lord Jesus has never answered for it.
It was God's will to reserve him for Judgement.

2) God's will is the final outcome in any case.
If He allows something that man desires to come to pass, then somewhere down the line He is there, working all things according to His will.

So,
In the case of two competing wills...
Proverbs 19:21 ( among many other examples ) clearly states that God's will ( His own "counsel" ) is what stands, not man's will ( our "counsel" ).

Therefore,
God's creation does not have any power over Him, neither do I see anywhere in His word that He has delegated the final say to us as men on any matter.

Paleouss said:

Greetings to all my brothers in Christ. May God bring peace and grace to all here.

My inquiry has to do with, what did God know or plan before creation. Was it everything or was it only some things? Of curse a determinist will have a different perspective than a theist. But I think most would agree that God knows all things (1John 3:20). The debate is therefore only what does "all things" entail?

I would like to present some verses to be considered and explained.

In Psa 139:16, it says that "The days fashioned for me, when as yet there were none of the them." Is this an indication that God had knowledge and established the order of things before creation?

Does God know what we will say because He has "fashioned" the days (per Psa139:16)?

If nothing else, does Proverbs 16:4 indicate that God knew before anything was made that there would be those who would choose wickedness?

Does Proverbs 19:21, as well as Gen 50:20, present a dichotomy between man's plans and God's plans? And that God's plans before established would stand as what will take place?

Does Proverbs 16:9 support Proverbs 19:21 and Genesis 50:20?


Some consideration from logic.
If something has purpose then the purpose of a thing's beginning is to lead to the purpose of that thing’s end. If a thing's beginning has a purpose to lead to that which is to be that thing's intended end, then all moments between that beginning and end purposely lead to that thing's end.

For example, if I envision an end and at the beginning I lay one domino on the table in a particular location, then all other domino between that beginning and intended end lead to that intended end. So, if a beginning of a thing has the purpose to lead to a particular end then all things between that beginning and end have the purpose of culminating toward that thing's end. Any variation, movement, misplacement, misangled placement and trajectory when falling can contribute to the final end not being reached. The dominos must be placed properly to have confidence that the final end, the final domino, will be reached.

What do you think about the verses above?


Keep seeking God's truth as if it were hidden treasure (Prov 2)

Click to expand...

He knew everything.

Dave G said:

I agree.
With Joe, I see that:

1) God allowed him to commit adultery, and will then recompense him for it;
Unless he is one of the saved.

a) If saved, then whatever Joe did has been put away and the Lord Jesus has already answered for it.
It was God's will to forgive him.
b) If lost, then whatever Joe did has not been put away and the Lord Jesus has never answered for it.
It was God's will to reserve him for Judgement.

2) God's will is the final outcome in any case.
If He allows something that man desires to come to pass, then somewhere down the line He is there, working all things according to His will.

So,
In the case of two competing wills...
Proverbs 19:21 ( among many other examples ) clearly states that God's will ( His own "counsel" ) is what stands, not man's will ( our "counsel" ).

Therefore,
God's creation does not have any power over Him, neither do I see anywhere in His word that He has delegated the final say to us as men on any matter.

Click to expand...

God does not always get His way with man. It's obvious God has given man free will to choose his own way.

Man does have the final say as to whether he will obey God, that's why there will be a judgement against disobedient man in the end.