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Opening up this statement of belief

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Here is a short statement of what I believe.

@JesusFan has read this several times and concludes that it is a "new" belief that is "not found in the scriptures". @Brightfame52 and @Martin Marprelate find it unbiblical.

I grant I could have strayed from Scripture (as all of us "see through a glass, dimly"). But I cannot find anything that is outright unbiblical or even new.

So that I can refine the statement, and correct it if needed, please let me know which points are not found in God's Word (and which h ones are new). I think I can provide passages for all of it, but if not then I need to examine more closely.

Thanks.


God created Adam from the dust, planted a Garden and placed Adam there. God commanded Adam not to eat of the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil . God told Adam that in the day he ate of the fruit death would be certain. Adam transgressed God’s command and his eyes were opened. God told Adam that because of his transgression he would work the land (the land was cursed) until he died, for he was dust and to dust he would return. God told the Serpent that he would put enmity between him and the woman, and between their offspring, that He would crush its head and he would strike His heel.

Adam had become like God, knowing good and evil. So that he would not take from the Tree of Life and live forever, God cast Adam out of the Garden, back to the place from which he was created.
Through Adam’s sin death entered the world and spread to all man, for all have sinned. Sin was in the world before God gave the Law, but sin was not charged against people as a transgression as they did not break a command. Nevertheless, death reigned even where there was no law because of sin.

Just as through the disobedience of one man, Adam the many were made sinners , so also through the obedience of the one man, Christ, the many will be made righteous.

The wages of sin is death, for sin produces death. Death spread to all because all have sinned. It is appointed man once to die and then the Judgment. I believe that God became man (truly man) like us but without sin. He bore our sins bodily on the cross. God became one of us so that we would become like Him and share in His glory.

The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is life in Christ Jesus. Jesus bore our sins bodily, He died for our sins, He was made sin for us. Men esteemed Him as stricken by God but it is by His stripes we were healed.

God set forth Jesus as a Propitiation. He is the Propitiation for the sins of the whole world. It pleased God to crush Him, He died by the means of the wicked, but this was God's predetermined plan.

Christ became a life giving Spirit. Although we die so shall we live. God recreates us in Chriat and conformed us into the image of Christ. In Christ there is no condemnation and we escape the wrath to come.
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Hete is a short statement of what I believe.

@JesusFan has read this several times and concludes that it is a "new" belief that is "not found in the scriptures". @Brightfame52 and @Martin Marprelate find it unbiblical.

I grant I could have strayed from Scripture (as all of us "see through a glass, dimly"). But I cannot find anything that is outright unbiblical or even new.

So that I can refine the statement, and correct it if needed, please let me know which points are not found in God's Word (and which h ones are new). I think I can provide passages for all of it, but if not then I need to examine more closely.

Thanks.


God created Adam from the dust, planted a Garden and placed Adam there. God commanded Adam not to eat of the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil . God told Adam that in the day he ate of the fruit death would be certain. Adam transgressed God’s command and his eyes were opened. God told Adam that because of his transgression he would work the land (the land was cursed) until he died, for he was dust and to dust he would return. God told the Serpent that he would put enmity between him and the woman, and between their offspring, that He would crush its head and he would strike His heel.

Adam had become like God, knowing good and evil. So that he would not take from the Tree of Life and live forever, God cast Adam out of the Garden, back to the place from which he was created.
Through Adam’s sin death entered the world and spread to all man, for all have sinned. Sin was in the world before God gave the Law, but sin was not charged against people as a transgression as they did not break a command. Nevertheless, death reigned even where there was no law because of sin.

Just as through the disobedience of one man, Adam the many were made sinners , so also through the obedience of the one man, Christ, the many will be made righteous.

The wages of sin is death, for sin produces death. Death spread to all because all have sinned. It is appointed man once to die and then the Judgment. I believe that God became man (truly man) like us but without sin. He bore our sins bodily on the cross. God became one of us so that we would become like Him and share in His glory.

The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is life in Christ Jesus. Jesus bore our sins bodily, He died for our sins, He was made sin for us. Men esteemed Him as stricken by God but it is by His stripes we were healed.

God set forth Jesus as a Propitiation. He is the Propitiation for the sins of the whole world. It pleased God to crush Him, He died by the means of the wicked, but this was God's predetermined plan.

Christ became a life giving Spirit. Although we die so shall we live. God recreates us in Chriat and conformed us into the image of Christ. In Christ there is no condemnation and we escape the wrath to come.
Where did the wrath of God the ftaher towards those who got saved go though? And are we born spiritually dead or not in Adam?
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Lol...."where did the wrath go?" That is a strange wording (like wrath is an electrical charge that must be discharged).

God's wrath does not "go" anywhere. The wicked are storing ip wrath for themselves which will be on the day of God's wrath when His righteousness judgment will be revealed.

The wicked will experience God's judgment against their wickedness. It does not "go" anywhere. They will experience the "second death".

Rom 1:18 "The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness"

Romans 2:5. But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.


NOW...

Back to YOUR claim.

I gave you my belief 6 times. You say it is a new belief that is not found in the scriptures

It is in the OP. (Post #1)

Point out which parts you cannot find in your Bible.
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Lol...."where did the wrath go?" That is a strange wording (like wrath is an electrical charge that must be discharged).

God's wrath does not "go" anywhere. The wicked are storing ip wrath for themselves which will be on the day of God's wrath when His righteousness judgment will be revealed.

The wicked will experience God's judgment against their wickedness. It does not "go" anywhere. They will experience the "second death".

Rom 1:18 "The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness"

Romans 2:5. But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.


NOW...

Back to YOUR claim.

I gave you my belief 6 times. You say it is a new belief that is not found in the scriptures

It is in the OP. (Post #1)

Point out which parts you cannot find in your Bible.
that wrath will either be visted upon the lost sinner, or else upon Jesus in our stead
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Has anyone asked you to declare your philosophy?

For me, yes. God has commanded us to declare His Word.

What I have declared is God's own words.

I have not added "wrath" whete it is absent in the biblicsl text.
I have not changed the basis for forgiveness, I just posted what is in the Bible itself.
I have not added to God's words when dealing with Christ's death, I simply posted a few passages.
I have not applied an illustration about Gentile inclusion to define "the elect", I just posted a series of verses defining "the elect".
I have not ignored posts about sins not being passed to another, I just posted verses saying they can't.


All of your objections have been against God, His words, not me.

What you do not like is that I reject what of your faith is not found in God's words

I don't care. That is between you and God.

Many who believe they are saved have in reality been carried away from the faith by philosophy.
Many professing "Christians" will suffer the second death.
Many will hear "I never knew you".

For me, I choose not to lean on any understand but on every word that comes from God.

To you that is foolishness. But that is proper. The flesh cannot understand the things of the Spirit.
That last line really is something, are you statin g that those of us posting here on this thread are all in the flesh? Do you not know per the bible being in the flesh would mean not saved? We would then be unsaved, unable to discern the scriptures?
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
That last line really is something, are you statin g that those of us posting here on this thread are all in the flesh? Do you not know per the bible being in the flesh would mean not saved? We would then be unsaved, unable to discern the scriptures?
You tell me.

@Zaatar71 made two true statements:

1. My belief is just God's Word posted
2. To him what I said I believe is foolishness.

But yes, I am saying that those who believe God's words are foolishness and depend on what men tell them is "really" taught are reading from the perspective of natural man (the flesh).

No, it does not mean "not saved", but that is a possibility. It could mean very immature (spiritually).
And it is a sin (it is a violation of God's instruction regarding His words vs man's understanding).
It is also a danger as one can be carried away from the faith by these philosophies.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Hete is a short statement of what I believe.

SNIP

God created Adam from the dust, planted a Garden and placed Adam there. God commanded Adam not to eat of the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil . God told Adam that in the day he ate of the fruit death would be certain. Adam transgressed God’s command and his eyes were opened. God told Adam that because of his transgression he would work the land (the land was cursed) until he died, for he was dust and to dust he would return. God told the Serpent that he would put enmity between him and the woman, and between their offspring, that He would crush its head and he would strike His heel.
[/QUOTE]
No problem, seems to be based on specific scripture!
Adam had become like God, knowing good and evil. So that he would not take from the Tree of Life and live forever, God cast Adam out of the Garden, back to the place from which he was created.
Through Adam’s sin death entered the world and spread to all man, for all have sinned. Sin was in the world before God gave the Law, but sin was not charged against people as a transgression as they did not break a command. Nevertheless, death reigned even where there was no law because of sin.
[/QUOTE]
Through Adam's sin, death entered humanity, and spread to all humans, for all have sinned in that all are conceived in a sinful separated state.
JonC said:
Just as through the disobedience of one man, Adam the many were made sinners , so also through the obedience of the one man, Christ, the many will be made righteous.
Just as through the disobedience of one man, Adam, the many (those in Adam) were made sinners, so also through the obedience of one man, Christ, the many (those transferred into Christ) will be made righteous.

The wages of sin is death, for sin produces death. Death spread to all because all have sinned. It is appointed man once to die and then the Judgment. I believe that God became man (truly man) like us but without sin. He bore our sins bodily on the cross. God became one of us so that we would become like Him and share in His glory.

[/QUOTE] I think this is a poor translation, Christ offered up His physical life for our sins on the cross. He was "treated" as sin for our sake.

The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is life in Christ Jesus. Jesus bore our sins bodily, He died for our sins, He was made sin for us. Men esteemed Him as stricken by God but it is by His stripes we were healed.

[/QUOTE]
I think this is a poor translation, rather Jesus offered up His body (His physical life) for our sins, He died for our sins, He was treated as sin for us.

God set forth Jesus as a Propitiation. He is the Propitiation for the sins of the whole world. It pleased God to crush Him, He died by the means of the wicked, but this was God's predetermined plan.

Christ became a life giving Spirit. Although we die so shall we live. God recreates us in Christ and conformed us into the image of Christ. In Christ there is no condemnation and we escape the wrath to come.
No problem, seems based on specific scripture.
 
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JonC

Moderator
Moderator
No problem, seems to be based on specific scripture!

[/QUOTE]
Through Adam's sin, death entered humanity, and spread to all humans, for all have sinned in that all are conceived in a sinful separated state.

Just as through the disobedience of one man, Adam, the many (those in Adam) were made sinners, so also through the obedience of one man, Christ, the many (those transferred into Christ) will be made righteous.




[/QUOTE] I think this is a poor translation, Christ offered up His physical life for our sins on the cross. He was "treated" as sin for our sake.



[/QUOTE]
I think this is a poor translation, rather Jesus offered up His body (His physical life) for our sins, He died for our sins, He was treated as sin for us.


No problem, seems based on specific scripture.
[/QUOTE]
I can see the parts you see as "poor translations" being that "the wicked" treated Jesus like sin (certainly they considered Him to have sinned).

@Brightfame52 made the comment that the word "for" in Jesus died for our sins can be translated "on behalf of" (which would mean "representing human sin". I can see that as well.

In the end I am content simply knowing that Jesus died for our sin as He was Himself sinless.

But good points.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Not sure if post #18 was in part addressing my objections. I agree with "Jesus died for our sin, and He was Himself sinless.

The verse (1 Peter 2:24) which in most translations says Jesus "bore" our sins bodily, is the poor translation. Scripture does not actually say that.

It says He offered up His body for our sins. The word translated as "bore" or carried in almost every English translation means "to offer up." Look at all the other translations of the same word!

Did He offer up our sins in His body, or did He offer up His sinless body for our sins.

He became the means of reconciliation, not only for our sins, but for the sin of the whole of humanity, thus He offered up His body for the sin of humanity, which healed those who have been transferred into Christ, but not anyone not yet transferred into Christ. Thus those who have been transferred into Christ can say, by His wounds we were healed.

The concept that Christ died for the specific sins of certain pre-chosen individuals has absolutely no support in scripture. He died as a ransom for all, those to be saved and those never to be saved.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Not sure if post #18 was in part addressing my objections. I agree with "Jesus died for our sin, and He was Himself sinless.

The verse (1 Peter 2:24) which in most translations says Jesus "bore" our sins bodily, is the poor translation. Scripture does not actually say that.

It says He offered up His body for our sins. The word translated as "bore" or carried in almost every English translation means "to offer up." Look at all the other translations of the same word!


Did He offer up our sins in His body, or did He offer up His sinless body for our sins.

He became the means of reconciliation, not only for our sins, but for the sin of the whole of humanity, thus He offered up His body for the sin of humanity, which healed those who have been transferred into Christ, but not anyone not yet transferred into Christ. Thus those who have been transferred into Christ can say, by His wounds we were healed.

The concept that Christ died for the specific sins of certain pre-chosen individuals has absolutely no support in scripture. He died as a ransom for all, those to be saved and those never to be saved.
It was, but I was not disagreeing with you.

The concept that Christ died for specific sins is a fairly new error (a 16th century error). But this is connected to the idea Jesus died for the specific sins of specific people.

Traditional Christianity views Jesus as dying for the sins of the world - for all human sin - reconciling mankind (the human race, not individuals) with God and that individual people needed to be reconciled to God.

John Calvin reformed RCC Atonenent (Aquinas' theory). He changed satisfactory substitution to penal substitution and changed the RCC idea that Chriat died for "original sin" to individual sins. The Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement IS Calvinism. And it is neo-Chriatianity.

Anyway, I was saying that I can see Christ as representing human sin, but I was not disagreeing with you at all.
 
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JonC

Moderator
Moderator
@JesusFan

Since you joined this thread, what say you?

I posted my belief (a quick summary anyway). You have been opposed to it for a long time, and I have given it to you many times, but you never actually pointed out what part you reject.

What parts of it, if any, do you find wrong?

I always appreciate corrections, and @Van was gracious enough to read and comment. He is right, BTW, that I used a poor translation in part of my statement. That is how we learn - by listening and going to God's Word.
 
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