Opening up this statement of belief

[atpollard]

God set forth Jesus as a Propitiation. He is the Propitiation for the sins of the whole world. It pleased God to crush Him, He died by the means of the wicked, but this was God's predetermined plan.

While the verbiage is Biblical, as a native English reader with no formal theology education, it holds the exact same ambiguity as the scripture verse quoted.

Of what value is meaningless TRUTH?

He (Jesus)
is the Propitiation (object that turns aside wrath and reconciles)
for the sins (actions contrary to the character of God)
of the whole world. (“World” has a multitude of meanings … )

So is Jesus the object that reconciles to God the contrary actions of …
… the planet on which we dwell (most common definition of world)
… every person that has ever existed (“That’s universalism, Patrick.” -Lutheran Satire reference)
… the system that sets itself up in opposition to God (a common Biblical use of world, but a strange meaning here)
… is there another meaning of world???

Was the purpose of a statement of faith not to increase clarity?

 

[atpollard]

I am wondering how God the Father could possibly forsake God the Son without being separated from Him? Thee bible teaches us that on the cross, Jesus was bearing the sins of His people. Surely that is why Gd the Father, Who is perfectly holy, separated Himself from His sin-bearing, though sinless, Son.

Layman question (this TRINITY thinking gives me a headache): Was not God the Son also “perfectly Holy”? He cannot be separated from himself (Hypostatic Union stuff). [now I need an aspirin]

 

[JonC]

I am wondering how God the Father could possibly forsake God the Son without being separated from Him?

God the Father could forsake the Son to suffer and die on the cross.


A good example of this is seen in Psalm 22 which starts with the Servant crying out out "why have you forsaken me?: The next part is the Servant trusting in God's faithfulness, that God will never abandon Him. As the Psalm progresses we see that God is there, and although the Servant suffers God will deliver Him.

But the Servant is forsaken to suffer and die. Evil surrounds Him. They pierce His hands and feet. They divide His garments. But God remains with Him, and has not hidden His face from Him. God delivers Him not from death but through death. And they will declare His righteousness.


That is one example of how Jesus could be forsaken to suffer and die without God leaving Him.

Many (I am one) believe that Psalm 22 foreshadowed the Cross (it foretold the Cross). We bueve that Suffering Servant is Chriat. So we do not, obviously, believe God separated from Christ.

But if you do not believe Psalm 22 is about Jesus at least it demonstrates how One could be forsaken to suffer and die without God separating from that person.



Another example is in common language. If a husband withholds financial support for a wife reliant on that support she is considered forsaken by her husband even though her husband has not separated from her.

If a doctor withholds medical aid he forsakes the patient even if never leaving the patients bedside.

Why on earth would you believe God separated from God? That denies so many passages in God's Word (at least for that moment).

 

[Van]

While the verbiage is Biblical, as a native English reader with no formal theology education, it holds the exact same ambiguity as the scripture verse quoted.

Of what value is meaningless TRUTH?

He (Jesus)
is the Propitiation (object that turns aside wrath and reconciles)
for the sins (actions contrary to the character of God)
of the whole world. (“World” has a multitude of meanings … )

So is Jesus the object that reconciles to God the contrary actions of …
… the planet on which we dwell (most common definition of world)
… every person that has ever existed (“That’s universalism, Patrick.” -Lutheran Satire reference)
… the system that sets itself up in opposition to God (a common Biblical use of world, but a strange meaning here)
… is there another meaning of world???

Was the purpose of a statement of faith not to increase clarity?

No need to claim the the meaning of the Greek word translated "world" by many versions, might mean something other than humanity. Rocks, trees, mountains do not sin.

Does becoming the means of reconciliation necessarily mean He reconciles every individual of humanity? No, of course not, so the concept does not say nor suggest universalism.

Yes, sometimes the Greek word translated "world" is used to refer to the fallen value system of humanity, but not in this verse. (1 John 2:2)

The effort to hide the meaning of the word, why some say it has more than a half dozen meanings, is to obscure the meaning of the whole of humanity, to support the false doctrine Jesus became the means of reconciliation only for those foreseen individuals supposedly chosen before creation, a mistaken viewpoint.

 

[JonC]

While the verbiage is Biblical, as a native English reader with no formal theology education, it holds the exact same ambiguity as the scripture verse quoted.

Of what value is meaningless TRUTH?

He (Jesus)
is the Propitiation (object that turns aside wrath and reconciles)
for the sins (actions contrary to the character of God)
of the whole world. (“World” has a multitude of meanings … )

So is Jesus the object that reconciles to God the contrary actions of …
… the planet on which we dwell (most common definition of world)
… every person that has ever existed (“That’s universalism, Patrick.” -Lutheran Satire reference)
… the system that sets itself up in opposition to God (a common Biblical use of world, but a strange meaning here)
… is there another meaning of world???

Was the purpose of a statement of faith not to increase clarity?

The statement (God's word" does not need to be increased in clarity. God's Word needs to be understood and accepted.

In the actual passages the word "Propitiation" is a noun. Nobody is automatically reconciled to God because Christ exists. He IS the propitiation for the sins for the whole World.

Another passage makes this even more clear for those still confused. On the criss God was reconciling mankind to Himself, not counting sins against them therefore we urge men to be reconciled to God.

If I have the cure for all cancer it is the cure for the cancer of everybody suffering from the disease. But only those taking the cure will be cured.


In trying to clarify what they do not understand by going to philosophy rather than Scrioture men do come up with a clear understanding, but it is an understanding foreign to the actual text of Scripture.


The only time Jesus is presented (in the Bible) as offering propitiation to God is as a High Priest interceding on behalf of Christians when they sin. The other three instances speak of Christ as the Propitiation (as the One in Whom we escaoe the wrath to come).