Opening up this statement of belief

[atpollard]

God set forth Jesus as a Propitiation. He is the Propitiation for the sins of the whole world. It pleased God to crush Him, He died by the means of the wicked, but this was God's predetermined plan.

While the verbiage is Biblical, as a native English reader with no formal theology education, it holds the exact same ambiguity as the scripture verse quoted.

Of what value is meaningless TRUTH?

He (Jesus)
is the Propitiation (object that turns aside wrath and reconciles)
for the sins (actions contrary to the character of God)
of the whole world. (“World” has a multitude of meanings … )

So is Jesus the object that reconciles to God the contrary actions of …
… the planet on which we dwell (most common definition of world)
… every person that has ever existed (“That’s universalism, Patrick.” -Lutheran Satire reference)
… the system that sets itself up in opposition to God (a common Biblical use of world, but a strange meaning here)
… is there another meaning of world???

Was the purpose of a statement of faith not to increase clarity?

 

[atpollard]

I am wondering how God the Father could possibly forsake God the Son without being separated from Him? Thee bible teaches us that on the cross, Jesus was bearing the sins of His people. Surely that is why Gd the Father, Who is perfectly holy, separated Himself from His sin-bearing, though sinless, Son.

Layman question (this TRINITY thinking gives me a headache): Was not God the Son also “perfectly Holy”? He cannot be separated from himself (Hypostatic Union stuff). [now I need an aspirin]

 

[JonC]

I am wondering how God the Father could possibly forsake God the Son without being separated from Him?

God the Father could forsake the Son to suffer and die on the cross.


A good example of this is seen in Psalm 22 which starts with the Servant crying out out "why have you forsaken me?: The next part is the Servant trusting in God's faithfulness, that God will never abandon Him. As the Psalm progresses we see that God is there, and although the Servant suffers God will deliver Him.

But the Servant is forsaken to suffer and die. Evil surrounds Him. They pierce His hands and feet. They divide His garments. But God remains with Him, and has not hidden His face from Him. God delivers Him not from death but through death. And they will declare His righteousness.


That is one example of how Jesus could be forsaken to suffer and die without God leaving Him.

Many (I am one) believe that Psalm 22 foreshadowed the Cross (it foretold the Cross). We bueve that Suffering Servant is Chriat. So we do not, obviously, believe God separated from Christ.

But if you do not believe Psalm 22 is about Jesus at least it demonstrates how One could be forsaken to suffer and die without God separating from that person.



Another example is in common language. If a husband withholds financial support for a wife reliant on that support she is considered forsaken by her husband even though her husband has not separated from her.

If a doctor withholds medical aid he forsakes the patient even if never leaving the patients bedside.

Why on earth would you believe God separated from God? That denies so many passages in God's Word (at least for that moment).

 

[Van]

While the verbiage is Biblical, as a native English reader with no formal theology education, it holds the exact same ambiguity as the scripture verse quoted.

Of what value is meaningless TRUTH?

He (Jesus)
is the Propitiation (object that turns aside wrath and reconciles)
for the sins (actions contrary to the character of God)
of the whole world. (“World” has a multitude of meanings … )

So is Jesus the object that reconciles to God the contrary actions of …
… the planet on which we dwell (most common definition of world)
… every person that has ever existed (“That’s universalism, Patrick.” -Lutheran Satire reference)
… the system that sets itself up in opposition to God (a common Biblical use of world, but a strange meaning here)
… is there another meaning of world???

Was the purpose of a statement of faith not to increase clarity?

No need to claim the the meaning of the Greek word translated "world" by many versions, might mean something other than humanity. Rocks, trees, mountains do not sin.

Does becoming the means of reconciliation necessarily mean He reconciles every individual of humanity? No, of course not, so the concept does not say nor suggest universalism.

Yes, sometimes the Greek word translated "world" is used to refer to the fallen value system of humanity, but not in this verse. (1 John 2:2)

The effort to hide the meaning of the word, why some say it has more than a half dozen meanings, is to obscure the meaning of the whole of humanity, to support the false doctrine Jesus became the means of reconciliation only for those foreseen individuals supposedly chosen before creation, a mistaken viewpoint.

 

[JonC]

While the verbiage is Biblical, as a native English reader with no formal theology education, it holds the exact same ambiguity as the scripture verse quoted.

Of what value is meaningless TRUTH?

He (Jesus)
is the Propitiation (object that turns aside wrath and reconciles)
for the sins (actions contrary to the character of God)
of the whole world. (“World” has a multitude of meanings … )

So is Jesus the object that reconciles to God the contrary actions of …
… the planet on which we dwell (most common definition of world)
… every person that has ever existed (“That’s universalism, Patrick.” -Lutheran Satire reference)
… the system that sets itself up in opposition to God (a common Biblical use of world, but a strange meaning here)
… is there another meaning of world???

Was the purpose of a statement of faith not to increase clarity?

The statement (God's word" does not need to be increased in clarity. God's Word needs to be understood, perhaps in light of other passages, and accepted.

In the actual passages the word "Propitiation" is a noun. Nobody is automatically reconciled to God because Christ exists. He IS the propitiation for the sins for the whole World.

Another passage makes this even more clear for those still confused. On the criss God was reconciling mankind to Himself, not counting sins against them therefore we urge men to be reconciled to God.

The only time Jesus is presented (in the Bible) as offering propitiation to God is as a High Priest interceding on behalf of Christians when they sin. The other three instances speak of Christ as the Propitiation (as the One in Whom we escape the wrath to come).

I believe that Scripture itself takes care of any ambiguity. Now, people will dusagree on interpretation, but it will be on interpretation of God's words.

For examole, in the passage here (1 Jn 2:2), many think the word should be "expiation" (Christ as the Lamb who takes away the sins of the world). Others think it should be "propitiation" (Christ as the One in Whom we escape the wrath to come). Others (like FF Bruce) think it should be "atoning sacrifuce" (Chrisr as the Lamb who takes away sin and rhe One in Whom we escape the wrath to come).


All three are legitimate interpretations. I do not know which John had in mind, but it does not change the actual passage.


But there are also illegitimate interpretations (eisegesis) that read into the text. These may change the nown to a verb, or add philosophical ideas to the text.

In the Bible we escape the wrath to come, we are forgiven of our sins, when we repent and believe, have a new heart and mind, are made new creations in Christ, are refined as gold and silver is refined, die to the flesh and are made alive in Christ, are born of the Spirit, and ultimately are conformed into the image of Christ.


The reason people look to God punishing Jesus instead of us to forgive us is they hold on to a defunct judicial philosophy which today only survives in a few religious sects. They view justice as demanding every crime be punished. And they apply this failed philosophy to divine justice, ignoring that justice was satisfied in Christ apart from the law (the "old man" ultimately dies and we are in the image of Christ while the wicked will perish).

 

[atpollard]

The statement (God's word" does not need to be increased in clarity. God's Word needs to be understood and accepted.

It is difficult to accept in any meaningful way what cannot be understood.

“He is the Propitiation for the sins of the whole world.”

Here are the definitions for “world” (Is Jesus the propitiation for every meaning of “world”?)

1a: the earthly state of human existence
1b: life after death —used with a qualifier
(the next world)

2: the earth with its inhabitants and all things upon it

3: individual course of life : CAREER

4: the inhabitants of the earth : the human race

5a: the concerns of the earth and its affairs as distinguished from heaven and the life to come
5b: secular affairs

6: the system of created things : UNIVERSE

7a: a division or generation of the inhabitants of the earth distinguished by living together at the same place or at the same time
(the medieval world)

7b: a distinctive class of persons or their sphere of interest or activity
(the academic world)
(the digital world)

8: human society
(withdraw from the world)

9: a part or section of the earth that is a separate independent unit

10: the sphere or scene of one's life and action
(living in your own little world)

11: an indefinite multitude or a great quantity or distance
(makes a world of difference)
(a world away)

12: the whole body of living persons : PUBLIC
(announced their discovery to the world)

13: KINGDOM sense 4
(the animal world)

14: a celestial body (such as a planet)