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What can you tell us about Jesus's forever torture chamber?
- Thread starter Mur
- Start date
What are you talking about? Final judgment? If that is what you are asking, the saints in heaven sing :
19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
Mur
Active Member
Are you saying that Jesus doesn't incarcerate souls in a place where they experience horrific suffering nonstop forever and ever?
No, because the bible clearly says Jesus sends unbelievers into second death, which is conscious eternal torment.
Mt.13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.
45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.
47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mur
Active Member
Will Jesus let good Christians like you and me accompany him into Hell to help torture the bad people? Do you agree that Jesus's methods of torture must be infinitely more cruel than Heinrich Himmler's?
You ignored my question on another thread, Mur. Since only a tiny, tiny few people who are what you label 'Bible believing Christians' have a belief in the heresy of universalism (and much different than your doctrine), what will you do to avoid the biblical directive not to forsake the gathering together for the purpose of worship and fellowship?
You seem to have rejected Baptists as believing in false doctrine. What will you do, start yet another denomination?
Just what Christianity needs, another denomination where this time they FIINALLY have established the church of the first century. Please don't ignore this question again. It's essential you not decide to go it alone. The Bible warns against it
It sounds as if you have not considered what are known as the attributes of God.
The God of the bible is infinitely Holy, just, and righteous.
Your comments are like those I have heard from unbelievers, and not from Christians at all.
Are you a Christian by New Birth?
If so, it is not proper art all to speak of God is such a profane way!
Righteous judgment, and punishment would be perfect retributive justice, not "torture".It could be that you have not been instructed in the faith.
Mur
Active Member
You're the one that teaches that Jesus tortures people forever in Hell, not me, remember?
If Jesus is making people suffer then perhaps he'll let guys like you help him to inflict more pain and suffering on those bad people. They've got it coming! Right?
This thread should demonstrate the comically absurd doctrine of forever punishment. It's unbiblical, unless you ignore the plethora of scriptures that demonstrate its absurdity.
Mur
Active Member
Forever punishment is not righteous. The doctrine that God is punishing people FOREVER and for absolutely no logical purpose is not only FALSE but beyond insane.
Mur
Active Member
You're the one in a denomination, not me. I am a member of Jesus's church, not yours. You could be too, but you'd rather be known as a Baptist.
I really enjoyed this community when I first arrived. But then I discovered members (like you) who utterly REJECT the word of God and preach demonic doctrines.
Let's put you to the test.
Does God want all people to be saved?
Does God get what God wants?
My Friend,
You need to study as it is clearly taught in scripture. For you to question God's perfection and wisdom, is the conduct of an unbeliever, so you need to study, but I would suggest you need to repent of an such unbelief. You can remain in unbelief, but that is not recommended.
Answer the question, we are told to PHYSICALLY gather together and not forsake fellowship. Where do you go to fellowship in order not to be in disobedience to God's word? Being part of the Body of Christ is not in Question, obedience to God's word is. You say you want to be a biblical Christian but you won't say how you are following his directive to fellowship with Christians of like faith and order. I don't know of any Christians of like faith and order that believe like you. Are you ready to start a new sect/denomination?
Just to clarify: What is your definition/belief of "universalism"
We've ALL "got it coming"!! The Bible says that "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God". All means ALL!
The Bible also says that "There is none righteous, no not one." None means NONE!!
Do you believe that Christ would have us go to hell and torture people? We have no right. As I said, you are just making that up.
What then makes the distinction between a hell bound person and a heaven bound person? There are those here who will say that I am wrong, but I can just quote scripture.
John 3:18 = “Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.”
Mur
Active Member
The problem for those that believe in forever punishment is that, if it's true, then it means that God doesn't get what he wants and that Jesus FAILS to reconcile all things. I don't believe those things. I believe that Jesus does indeed reconcile ALL THINGS to himself. Remember, Jesus said that he would build his church and that the Gates of Hell will NOT prevail. If you believe that Jesus comes up short then you must conclude that the "Gates of Hell" do indeed prevail!
The proponents of forever punishment will quote verses such as Matthew 25:46 but will ignore the plethora of scriptures that contradict Matthew 25:46. And the reason for those contradictions is that King James' men MISTRANSLATED that and other verses and that's how we got the false doctrine of forever punishment. Possessing this doctrine then makes it impossible to understand why and how God is working on everybody, including the angels. But, maybe this knowledge must be revealed by the Holy Spirit. Maybe one cannot know the truth unless it is revealed to them.
Ephesians 1:9-10
English Standard Version
9 making known[a] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in Christ, things in heaven and things on earth in him.
I want to apologize for being rhetorical. I did come here for fellowship and what happens to wicked people upon death doesn't affect your salvation or mine. I will accept that we simply have a different understanding and leave it at that.
The proponents of forever punishment will quote verses such as Matthew 25:46 but will ignore the plethora of scriptures that contradict Matthew 25:46. And the reason for those contradictions is that King James' men MISTRANSLATED that and other verses and that's how we got the false doctrine of forever punishment. Possessing this doctrine then makes it impossible to understand why and how God is working on everybody, including the angels. But, maybe this knowledge must be revealed by the Holy Spirit. Maybe one cannot know the truth unless it is revealed to them.
Ephesians 1:9-10
English Standard Version
9 making known[a] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in Christ, things in heaven and things on earth in him.
I want to apologize for being rhetorical. I did come here for fellowship and what happens to wicked people upon death doesn't affect your salvation or mine. I will accept that we simply have a different understanding and leave it at that.
Matt 25:46
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
II Thes 1:8-9
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Rev 20:10
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
There are more verses - but these three should suffice
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
II Thes 1:8-9
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Rev 20:10
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
There are more verses - but these three should suffice
Mur
Active Member
I believe that the lost are chastened after death and that, eventually, God grants them repentance so that they can come to the truth and then they will gleefully choose to follow Jesus.
Remember, nobody can follow Jesus unless God permits them to do so. Also, or so I believe, nobody can repent unless allowed by God to do so.
Acts 5:31
Verse Concepts
He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Acts 11:18
Verse Concepts
When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, “Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life.”
2 Timothy 2:25
Verse Concepts
with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,
Romans 2:4
Verse Concepts
Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
2 Peter 3:9
Verse Concepts
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.