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Historic Premillennialism and Daniel’s 70 Weeks

John of Japan

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Not all of it. I'll give you that here from More than Conquerors, by William Hendriksen: REVELATION 20-22 2. The Reign of the Saints (20: 4-6), pg 193.
I don't want Hendriksen. I want you to answer.
It certainly would be better if you had already gained the understanding that each of Revelation's SEVEN VISIONS gives a treatment repeating events, as examples of circumstances which will TAKE PLACE THROUGHOUT THE CHURCH AGE, and each VISION covers the same SPAN and PERIOD OF TIME IN HISTORY, the Time between Jesus' First Coming and His Ascension to Jesus'
Second Coming...believe it or not, that is how Revelation is structured, so we can get the best grasp of what God has 'Revealed'!
I've read the book of Revelation for 60 years, preached on it, taught on it in Japanese and English, read commentaries on it, written lectures and papers on it. (Shall I attach my set of lectures on the whole book in Japanese? ;)) I think I have already "gained the understanding" of the book, but I have doubts about you. :Cautious (That was an offensive statement. Just saying, you know. It is impolite to assume ignorance in a debate opponent.)

But I suggest you start your own thread on this as you have been asked to by the author of the OP.
 
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John of Japan

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Very good/nice question!

25; "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26; "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."


Do you see this? "the people of the prince that shall come",
Then, who is it that this verse says it is "that shall come"?

It is "the people of the prince" = "that shall come" and do the destroying, not "the prince".

"the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary"; that is, the people of the Romans, under Vespasian their prince, emperor, and General Titus, who was Vespasion's son, should, in a little time after the cutting off of the Messiah at His Crucifixion, enter into the land of Judea, and destroy the city of Jerusalem, and the Temple that stood in it; (though some understand this of Messiah the Prince that should Come in His Power, and in a way of Judgment upon the Jewish Nation, and destroy them for their Rejection and Murdering of Him and it is True in my belief, but not as the Primary Interpretation OF "THE PRINCE" but would be an application and we'd need to add a Capitol "P" in Prince then; Matthew 24: the "Coming of the Lord" that the Deciples ask Jesus about was when they thought Jesus might Make His Triupham Proclimation that He was taking over the Rule of the Government from The Jews, when they asked, "what shall be the sign of Thy Coming", in 24:3b, while the real question that Jesus Answered was concerning the signs there would be prior to Jesus Coming in Providential Judgment upon the Jews, with Him Overseeing The Roman Armies "in the clouds", like in the Old Testament and Matthew 24, because at that Time in 70 A.D. the people or the Roman Army would be under Jesus Direction, ultimately, and Jesus would also ultimately be the One by Whose Orders, all these Judgments would be brought upon the Jews, in Jerusalem, A.D. 70.

So, in Matthew 24 Jesus is the Primary Interpretation of Who was to do the destroying, by Using the people, the Roman Armies, was Jesus, as we see
in 24:27; "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west (when you realize the Roman Armies are Coming (as Jesus is Using them = you better ruuun!!); "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" when Jesus' was Coming in Judgment against those Jews who as a Nation had Crucified Him). 28; "For wheresoever the carcase is" (the deceased Jews), "there will the eagles" (the Roman Army who's insignia was an Eagle) "be gathered together", but here in Daniel 9, it is going to be Vespasion as the Primary Interpretation, being the actual historical prince at that time and his son, Titus, who carried out the Abomination of Desolation (Matthew 24:15). Many of the Jewish writers themselves Interpret it of Vespasian, as Aben Ezra, Jarchi, Abarbinel, and Jacchiades:"



"Gap" sounds strangely familiar. 70 years equalling 69 years plus approximately 2000+/- years plus 1 more year? Not your typical Prophecy accuracy we'd like to see.

The 2069th+/- week, plus one!(?)


"the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary" is how it is said in Daniel 9:26 KJV. So, we have to make sure we're saying what's there right.

Yes, Vespasian can be the one talked about here and his son, Titus "for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate", whereas the Determination was by Jesus' Decree, for sure.

Once you have Daniel, Matthew, and Revelation under your belt, where you feel very confident about your understanding of Daniel 7, Matthew 24, and Revelation 20:4, especially, you will be glad you stuck with them to get at least your weight in Gold regarding them.

If there are more difficult verses to interpret, while reconciling them among themselves and the rest of the Bible, I haven't met with them yet.

And having said that, I have certainly found allowing the Bible to interpret the Bible, to be unbelievably awesome and am amazed just how often we can benefit from doing that, especially in the most difficult and obscure passages, while under the Lordship of Jesus!

Speaking of rare, how often could we all Increase our Blessing in understanding what God would have us to know, the MORE WE PRAY about these "things of God"?
Start a new thread, as the author of the OP has asked you.
 

Alan Dale Gross

Active Member
I don't want Hendriksen. I want you to answer.
I give best I know about all of it in the World or on the Net, etc.
I think I have already "gained the understanding" of the book, but I have doubts about you. :Cautious (That was an offensive statement. Just saying, you know. It is impolite to assume ignorance in a debate opponent.)
My desire is that someone discern the insight into the Divine Structure of Revelation, where each Vision covers the Time Frame from Jesus' First Appearance on Earth to His Second Coming.

Each Vision gives a description of the End of the World, beginning in Revelation 1:7 "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."

Each Vision also contains a description of Jesus' First Coming, as in Revelation 1:7 "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."

You should see each Vision stacked on top of each other, because there is a description of Jesus' First Coming in every Vision and a description of Jesus' Second Coming.
But I suggest you start your own thread on this as you have been asked to by the author of the OP.
Did he? Me talking about Daniel's 70 Weeks. That's wild.
Start a new thread, as the author of the OP has asked you.
Alright already. Sounds like "https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...IQFnoECB4QAQ&usg=AOvVaw291cVfBKcANwerfmhCePAY
 
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John of Japan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I give best I know about all of it in the World or on the Net, etc.
My pet peeve on the BB is long, involved posts with a bunch of quotes from someone other than the poster.
My desire is that someone discern the insight into the Divine Structure of Revelation, where each Vision covers the Time Frame from Jesus' First Appearance on Earth to His Second Coming.

Each Vision gives a description of the End of the World, beginning in Revelation 1:7 "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."

Each Vision also contains a description of Jesus' First Coming, as in Revelation 1:7 "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."

You should see each Vision stacked on top of each other, because there is a description of Jesus' First Coming in every Vision and a description of Jesus' Second Coming.
Please quit telling me what I should do.
Did he? Me talking about Daniel's 70 Weeks. That's wild.
He did, when you brought the millennium into the thread.
Why would I want a PDF of Mauro's book?? I'm not amil and will never, ever be, even after I get to Heaven! :Geek
 
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Alan Dale Gross

Active Member
Why would I want a PDF of Mauro's book?? I'm not amil and will never, ever be, even after I get to Heaven! :Geek
Sure you will be. We'll be saying "John is Amil now."

No, that's an Inside Baseball Preacher joke, in which, whoever assigns their pet End Times scheme to the deceased's name, first, 'wins' the stupid joke.

Supposed to be a little tongue in cheek hilarity.

But I would really be being gravely serious about it.

Sorry about that. Many people such as yourself may have even been taught and have it ingrained in their thinking that Amil is heresy. So, 'accusing' someone of it then is another strong insult.

Here's Seventy Weeks and Great Tribulation in a BB posting from 2023; Thread 'The Seventy Weeks and Great Tribulation by Phillip Mauro.' The Seventy Weeks and Great Tribulation by Phillip Mauro.

There is comprehensive, thorough treatment of more subjects in it than Jesus will Reign on Earth folks can count, must less tackle with gusto and still have them all consistently God-Honoring and having no contridictions.

And I'm sorry again. Any talk about something like an Earthly Reign of one thousand years by Jesus Christ without an actual bonafide Scripture support that can be read in the Bible as it's taught is just some figment of a sin-cursed man who is reasoning with a mind that is suffering from the effects of the Fall of Adam, by using a 'hermeneutic' of, "God is O.K. with us adding to His Word" when He says He is not O.K. with that kind of sophomoric tomfoolery.

Think about what you have tried to convince me of, with nothing to substantiate the first thing about Jesus Reigning on Earth for a thousand years that is anything more than a wild, fleshly, stretch.

He's not, simply because it is not in there. It's invented right before your very eyes.
 

Alan Dale Gross

Active Member
My pet peeve on the BB is long, involved posts with a bunch of quotes from someone other than the poster.
If you are not the least interested in God-Honoring material that is the best on the net that you can feel confident picking up and preaching the Truths of the Word of God, you need to put me on 'Ignore'. I don't feel sorry for you one bit.
Please quit telling me what I should do.
Yeah, it takes the Holy Spirit to Turn a sinner from the ERROR of their ways.
He did, when you brought the millennium into the thread.
Like these in his O.P.?

historic premillennialism

a subset of premillennialism

historic premillennialists view the church age

historic premillennialists view this passage with a preterist perspective?
For the sake of honesty, what are you supposed to be up to?

Adding 'a Reign of Jesus on Earth' to Revelation 20:4 to include that in your "MILLENNIALISMS", or to dump them as so much worthless trash? after making such a simpleton blunder?
 

John of Japan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sure you will be. We'll be saying "John is Amil now."

No, that's an Inside Baseball Preacher joke, in which, whoever assigns their pet End Times scheme to the deceased's name, first, 'wins' the stupid joke.

Supposed to be a little tongue in cheek hilarity.

But I would really be being gravely serious about it.

Sorry about that. Many people such as yourself may have even been taught and have it ingrained in their thinking that Amil is heresy. So, 'accusing' someone of it then is another strong insult.
No one ever taught me that amil is heresy, and I don't believe it. It's just mistaken.

No one ever forced me to be amil. When I grew up I studied the issue extensively and came to the Dispensational premil position. I was accepted to my mission board in 1979 as historic premil, studied further and came to Dispensationalism. Why premil? It's the only position that comes from a literal interpretation of the Bible. End of story for me. I'm not going to force some allegorical interpretation on the Word of God, particularly Rev. 20. There is no certainty in your Amil position because it is not a literal interpretation, taking the NT for exactly what it says.

Here is a quote by an amil scholar that proves my point: "In this book of symbols how long is a thousand years? All sorts of theories are proposed, none of which fully satisfy one" (A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the NT).
Here's Seventy Weeks and Great Tribulation in a BB posting from 2023; Thread 'The Seventy Weeks and Great Tribulation by Phillip Mauro.' The Seventy Weeks and Great Tribulation by Phillip Mauro.

There is comprehensive, thorough treatment of more subjects in it than Jesus will Reign on Earth folks can count, must less tackle with gusto and still have them all consistently God-Honoring and having no contridictions.

And I'm sorry again. Any talk about something like an Earthly Reign of one thousand years by Jesus Christ without an actual bonafide Scripture support that can be read in the Bible as it's taught is just some figment of a sin-cursed man who is reasoning with a mind that is suffering from the effects of the Fall of Adam, by using a 'hermeneutic' of, "God is O.K. with us adding to His Word" when He says He is not O.K. with that kind of sophomoric tomfoolery.
I gave you plenty of Biblical evidence, but you just shrugged it off. And let me say that I've read many authors on prophecy, and not a one, not a single scholar of eschatology, takes your position that that 1000 years happens in Heaven.
Think about what you have tried to convince me of, with nothing to substantiate the first thing about Jesus Reigning on Earth for a thousand years that is anything more than a wild, fleshly, stretch.

He's not, simply because it is not in there. It's invented right before your very eyes.
Again, I gave you plenty of evidence. You did not take my position fairly enough to refute each of my points. And it is insulting to call my position "wild, fleshly stretch." It is the position of almost all churches in the first 3 centuries, and even today the position of the vast majority of evangelicals.
 

John of Japan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
If you are not the least interested in God-Honoring material that is the best on the net that you can feel confident picking up and preaching the Truths of the Word of God, you need to put me on 'Ignore'. I don't feel sorry for you one bit.

Yeah, it takes the Holy Spirit to Turn a sinner from the ERROR of their ways.

Like these in his O.P.?


For the sake of honesty, what are you supposed to be up to?

Adding 'a Reign of Jesus on Earth' to Revelation 20:4 to include that in your "MILLENNIALISMS", or to dump them as so much worthless trash? after making such a simpleton blunder?
These statements are incendiary. Why do you have to be so dismissive and insulting?
 

John of Japan

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Site Supporter
What areas of agreement did John R. Rice had with Historic Premillennialists?
He believed in the 7 year tribulation and the 1000 year literal reign of Christ, but disagreed with Dispensationalism. He believed that the OT saints were included in the church, but did not accept replacement theology, and supported Israel strongly.
 

John of Japan

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Site Supporter
Folks, when you are insulting and dismissive on the Internet (and I've done that too), you are not adorning the doctrine you are advocating, so people may dismiss you out of hand without even considering your arguments. "Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things" (Titus 2:10).
 

Tea

Member
Folks, when you are insulting and dismissive on the Internet (and I've done that too), you are not adorning the doctrine you are advocating, so people may dismiss you out of hand without even considering your arguments.

Greetings, brother @John of Japan.

I suppose it's that fleshly aspect of us that leads to our shortcomings, especially on the internet. But you’re correct; I think we all have been at fault in that regard if we’re truly honest with ourselves. I’ve certainly issued my fair share of apologies over the years online.
 
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Dave G

Well-Known Member
I can't take the 'pre' or 'post' millennialist positions seriously, since there is no reference they can produce where Jesus is said to Reign on Earth for a Thousand-years/ a 'millennium'
There are many references, Alan.
Here are a few:

" And it shall come to pass in the last days, [that] the mountain of the Lord’s house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more
. " ( Isaiah 2:2-4)

See also Zechariah 10-14, followed by this:

" And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."
( Revelation 20:4-6 ).

Every reference that has to do with the last days where the Lord is said to rule and to reign from His father David's throne ( not His Father God's throne ), takes place at Jerusalem, from His temple that Ezekiel prophesied about, and during the 1,000 years after the first resurrection ( and before the second resurrection ).


Please re-read them, carefully, and especially Revelation.
I wish you well, sir.
 
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Dave G

Well-Known Member
I know that generally speaking the historic premillennialists view the church age as foreseen in the Old Testament. Dispensationalists do not. The gap makes sense in this case, if it was not foreseen.

Do historic premillennialists view this passage with a preterist perspective? That the 70 weeks have already been fulfilled? Or is it something similar to the dispensationalist view?
I'm what many here would call "historic pre-millennial", and I can say with all sincerity that I view none of the end times prophecies with anything approaching preterism or a-millennialism.

To me, the 70th "week" of Daniel is not triggered by the "rapture" ( please see Mathew 24 and Mark 13 for the timing of our catching away )... It is triggered by a covenant that is made with Israel and many other nations; The "great tribulation", or "time of Jacob's trouble" ( which lasts 42 months or 3.5 years ) is triggered by Anti-Christ sitting down in the mercy seat in a re-built temple at Jerusalem and declaring himself to be God; right in the middle of that 70th "week".

What is known as the "Church Age" is briefly mentioned ( in bits and pieces ) in the prophets ( Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Zechariah, the Psalms, etc ), but the actual time frame of 1,000 years ( that according to Revelation 20, takes place immediately prior to the Judgement ), is never specifically mentioned until the Lord Jesus shows John this detail in the book of Revelation.

As for sources or extra-biblical books to study for opinions on it, I know of none.
That doesn't mean that there aren't any out there ( because I'm sure that they do exist ), but I don't use them or recommend studying anything other than God's words for the believer.


At the end of the day, I firmly believe that Christians are given all that we need by God in the Person of His Spirit and in His divinely preserved words...
We don't need anything else to understand the Bible.
Rather, what we need to do is what Paul told Timothy:

" Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. "

" All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works
."


May God bless you.
 
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Truth Seeker

Member
Site Supporter
He believed in the 7 year tribulation and the 1000 year literal reign of Christ, but disagreed with Dispensationalism. He believed that the OT saints were included in the church, but did not accept replacement theology, and supported Israel strongly.
When did John R Rice teach that the OT saints were included in the church? Was it at His Ascension, Pentecost or at His second coming? Does this mean that Rice believed in Covenant Theology? If no, then what was his theological framework?
 
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