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1JN.2:2...A.W.Pink

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
@Martin Marprelate

Our sins show us that we are sinners. Sins do not make us sinners. We sin because we are sinners.

We sin because we fall short of the glory of God. Sins are the fruit of a mind set on the flesh (Gal 5).

Our sins seperaye us ftom God in that our sins show us who we are.

What is the penalty (under God's law) for theft? Exodus 22 tells us. It is the thieg paying the value of what was stolen back to the individual. That is not punishment, per se, but it is justice.

Your philosophy is that the judge must collect the amount (it does not matter who pays) because that is what the law demands.
But that is false.

The law actually demands that the thief forfeit what was stolen and it be returned to the owner.

Your philosophy of justice is wrong.
I only just saw this. It is truly awful. Did you really think I wouldn't bother to look at the text you referenced?
I want to ask anybody reading this thread to read Exodus 22.
Verse 1. 'If a man steals an ox or a sheep, and slaughters it or sells it, he shall restore five oxen for an ox and four sheep for a sheep.'
Verse 4. 'If the theft is certainly found alive in his hand, whether it is an ox or donkey or sheep, he shall restore double.'
These are penal sanctions. It is not simply paying back the amount stolen. You will find the same thing in verses 7 & 9.
Someone's philosophy of justice is wrong, but I think you'll find it's you.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
I only just saw this. It is truly awful. Did you really think I wouldn't bother to look at the text you referenced?
I want to ask anybody reading this thread to read Exodus 22.
Verse 1. 'If a man steals an ox or a sheep, and slaughters it or sells it, he shall restore five oxen for an ox and four sheep for a sheep.'
Verse 4. 'If the theft is certainly found alive in his hand, whether it is an ox or donkey or sheep, he shall restore double.'
These are penal sanctions. It is not simply paying back the amount stolen. You will find the same thing in verses 7 & 9.
Someone's philosophy of justice is wrong, but I think you'll find it's you.
It is penalty, but it is restoration. You missed my other comments.

Restoration is not just towards the one harmed. It is to the people as a whole.

This is the goal of God punishing the wicked. Where you view it as God meeting the demands of justice in order that God can act it is quite the opposite.

The wicked are punished by being "cast out". The wicked are expelled. This restores the people.

If you are wicked at judgment then you will be cast out.

If your faith is thar God punished Jesus for your sins and therefore your debt is paid, but you have not actually experienced the real (the biblical) purpose actually accomplished by Jesus' death then you will experience the second death and an eternal punishment.

Your salvation itself depends on you being wrong about the cross, you not actually leaning on that understanding, and Christ's death as having the worth you deny it.
 

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
You are making Christ's blood shed for us, and divine justice, too superficial.

What does this punishment in your theory accomplish? It accomplishes nothing. The wicked are still wicked.
Stop being so silly! You know better than that.
When God's justice is vindicated, then God sends His Spirit to give people news hearts and spirits. It is after our Lord's ascension that the Spirit is poured out (John 16:7; Acts 2:33).
Christ's death did so much more than you are willing to admit. The cross actually is the reconciliation of God and man, no matter how much you want it to be an accounting took used by God to meet what the law requires of Him.
Of course the cross is the reconciliation between God and man! But God's justice has to be satisfied first (Romans 3:25-26 again!) so that He can be 'just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus.' I have been through all this so many times.
 

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
It is penalty,
Thank you! I thought we would never get there.
but it is restoration. You missed my other comments.

Restoration is not just towards the one harmed. It is to the people as a whole.
No, it is restoration to the party injured. If the community is injured, albeit accidentally (v.6), then the restitution is to the community.
That is just.
This is the goal of God punishing the wicked. Where you view it as God meeting the demands of justice in order that God can act it is quite the opposite.

The wicked are punished by being "cast out". The wicked are expelled. This restores the people.

If you are wicked at judgment then you will be cast out.
Good to remember at this time of year that 'Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners' (1 Tim. 1:15) and 'I did not come to judge the world but to save it' (John 12:47b). The cross does not condemn people; it saves them, while preserving the justice of God..
 

Alan Dale Gross

Active Member
"Christ, by His Obedience and Death, did Fully Discharge the debt of all those who are Justified;

"and did, by the Sacrifice of Himself in the Blood of His cross, undergoing in their Stead the Penalty due to them, make a Proper, Real, and Full Satisfaction to God’s Justice in their behalf; 8
8; Hebrews 10:14;

14 For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified.

1 Peter 1:18–19;

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

Isaiah 53:5-6;

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions,

He was bruised for our iniquities:

The chastisement of our peace was upon him;

And with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray;

We have turned every one to his own way;

And the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

"yet, in as much as He was Given by the Father for them, and His Obedience and Satisfaction Accepted in their Stead, and both Freely, not for anything in them, 9
9; Romans 8:32;

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

2 Corinthians 5:21;

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

their Justification is only of Free Grace, that both the exact Justice and Rich Grace of God might be Glorified in the Justification of sinners, 10
10; Romans 3:26

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Ephesians 1:6–7;

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Ephesians 2:7;

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.


Yep. A superficial view of atonement expressed in a superficial confession for superficial Christians seeking an easy-believism form of Christianity.

TALK TO THE NAIL SCARRED HAND.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
8; Hebrews 10:14;

14 For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified.

1 Peter 1:18–19;

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

Isaiah 53:5-6;

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions,

He was bruised for our iniquities:

The chastisement of our peace was upon him;

And with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray;

We have turned every one to his own way;

And the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.


9; Romans 8:32;

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

2 Corinthians 5:21;

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


10; Romans 3:26

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Ephesians 1:6–7;

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Ephesians 2:7;

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.




TALK TO THE NAIL SCARRED HAND.
I absolutely agree with thise passages. I d0 not agree with what men have told you those passages "really" mean.

The blood Chriat shed for us is more valuable, acvomplished more, than you are willing to admit.

It was really completed on the Cross. Man was truly reconciled to God, not just that accounting transaction you pretend to have occurred. In Christ men's actions are not just forgiven. Man is reconciled.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
@Alan Dale Gross

My issue with your theory is you (@Martin Marprelate , @Zaatar71 , and @DaveXR650 ) elevate man too high, have too low a view of God's righteousness, and hold a very shallow view of the blood of Christ shed for us.

You like to use "holy" words to make your theory sound better, but in the end of the day you are left with a theology that is a mile wide and an inch deep.

Christ did not die so that God could balance the legal ledgers regarding man's actions.

On the cross God was reconciling mankind to Himself, not counting their sins against them. You only acknowledge God not counting man's sins against them, and you pretend that this is reconciliation.

Man's "problem" is much deeper than man's actions. Man's "problem" is that man falls short of God's glory.

The blood of Christ shed for us deals with the "problem" of man, not merely man's deeds.
 

Zaatar71

Well-Known Member
@Alan Dale Gross

My issue with your theory is you (@Martin Marprelate , @Zaatar71 , and @DaveXR650 ) elevate man too high, have too low a view of God's righteousness, and hold a very shallow view of the blood of Christ shed for us.
This is completely backwards, and not correct, but your opinion is duly noted.
You like to use "holy" words to make your theory sound better,
Again John uses the word theory as if to diminish the teaching.
but in the end of the day you are left with a theology that is a mile wide and an inch deep.
No one who knows anything accuses reformed and puritan theology of this caricature.
Christ did not die so that God could balance the legal ledgers regarding man's actions.

On the cross God was reconciling mankind to Himself, not counting their sins against them. You only acknowledge God not counting man's sins against them, and you pretend that this is reconciliation.
John does not seem to grasp the scope of the issue.
Man's "problem" is much deeper than man's actions. Man's "problem" is that man falls short of God's glory.
No one has disputed this red herring.
The blood of Christ shed for us deals with the "problem" of man, not merely man's deeds.
a vague confused thought, but thanks for offering it.
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Penal Substitution Theory is too superficial.

Justice is not an acvounting for human actions. It is actually dealing with men falling short of God's glory.

Punishment is never the end goal (in justice it is a means to an end).

In the Bible the wicked are punished but their punishment is the "second death" as the wicked are "cast out". Why? This is restoring justice. It is removing evil.

The reason Legal Humanism proved a failure is its unjustness. It is just as unjust in Penal Substitution Theory.
PSA though provides the only basis by which Holy God can freely declared justified a lost sinner
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
I absolutely agree with thise passages. I d0 not agree with what men have told you those passages "really" mean.

The blood Chriat shed for us is more valuable, acvomplished more, than you are willing to admit.

It was really completed on the Cross. Man was truly reconciled to God, not just that accounting transaction you pretend to have occurred. In Christ men's actions are not just forgiven. Man is reconciled.
God the Father can and does reconcile lost sinners and justifys them to Himself due to their sin obligation and His wrath towards them for being sinners was now appeased and satisfied at the Cross
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
This is completely backwards, and not correct, but your opinion is duly noted.

Again John uses the word theory as if to diminish the teaching.

No one who knows anything accuses reformed and puritan theology of this caricature.

John does not seem to grasp the scope of the issue.

No one has disputed this red herring.

a vague confused thought, but thanks for offering it.
Just what exactly why Jesus have to die upon that cross then, why was His blood shed and why did he suffer as he did, not merely physically, but in a fashion none save himself ever could have?
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
This is completely backwards, and not correct, but your opinion is duly noted.

Again John uses the word theory as if to diminish the teaching.

No one who knows anything accuses reformed and puritan theology of this caricature.

John does not seem to grasp the scope of the issue.

No one has disputed this red herring.

a vague confused thought, but thanks for offering it.
No, I use the word "theory" because the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement is a theory of Atonement (it is one of many). The reason it is a theory is because it is what men reason out of the biblical text rather than the text itself. It is a theory (whether the theory is correct or flawed) because it cannot be proven by the biblical text.

But you make a good point. Those who do not understand their theory to be a theory elevate their understanding to the level of Scripture itself.


But that was not my point.

My point is that the Pensl Substitution Theory of Atonement minimizes the blood of Christ shed for us. Rather than actually reconciling man to God the theory views Christ's death as an act of legal accounting in order to balance out man's actions with what those actions deserve.

The theory also elevates man by treating the problem of man as being the actions and behaviors of man and the penalty those actions earn.

The theory also makes the mistake of trying to go around the cross (rather than viewing the Atonement as Christ-centered it assumes the primary view from the perspective of the Father solving the problem the law demands of Him).

In truth (in the Bible) the blood Christ shed for us is eternally of more worth than penal substitution theorists are willing to allow.

The reason is these theorists look for an easy believism that makes no demands of the believer. They reject the reconciliation of man being acvomplished on the cross because if this is true then the way is more narrow than they are able to accept.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
God the Father can and does reconcile lost sinners and justifys them to Himself due to their sin obligation and His wrath towards them for being sinners was now appeased and satisfied at the Cross
But this is unbiblical (it is a heresy).

Men do not perish because their actions were not punished beforehand. And punishing their sins on another would not reconcile them to God.

We sin because we fall short of the glory of God. Sins are products (or fruits) of natural man (a mind set on the flesh). Galatians 5 tells us this.
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
But this is unbiblical (it is a heresy).

Men do not perish because their actions were not punished beforehand. And punishing their sins on another would not reconcile them to God.

We sin because we fall short of the glory of God. Sins are products (or fruits) of natural man (a mind set on the flesh). Galatians 5 tells us this.
Jesus taking upon Himself our due wrath and condemnation for being lost sinners in order to have Holy God , since now has his wrath apepased ad someone taking upon themselves what was due us, allows the Father to justify us now
IF Psa is really Heresy, you seem to be stating that all reformed and Majority of calvinists and non calvinist who have and still do hold that view are holding to heresy, would that be anothert Gospel then to you ?
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Jesus taking upon Himself our due wrath and condemnation for being lost sinners in order to have Holy God , since now has his wrath apepased ad someone taking upon themselves what was due us, allows the Father to justify us now
IF Psa is really Heresy, you seem to be stating that all reformed and Majority of calvinists and non calvinist who have and still do hold that view are holding to heresy, would that be anothert Gospel then to you ?
By "heresy" I mean a false doctrine with the standard being God's Word. I know the theory is orthodox within "Christisnity" as a whole. But so is Open Theism.

Yes, I am saying that Calvinists hold to "another gospel", many do alongside the gospel of Jesus Christ, others just that "other gospel".

I have already said this. A Calvinist can also be a Christian, but they can also just be a Calvinist.
 

Zaatar71

Well-Known Member
No, I use the word "theory" because the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement is a theory of Atonement (it is one of many). The reason it is a theory is because it is what men reason out of the biblical text rather than the text itself. It is a theory (whether the theory is correct or flawed) because it cannot be proven by the biblical text.

But you make a good point. Those who do not understand their theory to be a theory elevate their understanding to the level of Scripture itself.
No, I have not done that. What scripture teaches is not a theory.Jude does not say, Contend for the theory once delivered to the saints;3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
But that was not my point.

My point is that the Pensl Substitution Theory of Atonement minimizes the blood of Christ shed for us.
no, it is the maximum effectiveness that God intended , nothing more, nothing less.
Rather than actually reconciling man to God the theory
Not interested in your idea of what is a theory.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
No, I have not done that. What scripture teaches is not a theory.
Yes, you have.

You offer passages and then your conclusion about what those passages really teach. That is by definition a theory.

To evaluate your theory you would have to explain how you get from God's words to your conclusions (something you have consistently proven unable to do). But even if you could evaluate it, it would still be a theory (it cannot be proven with the Bible as the standard).

So your theory could be right, or it could be wrong.

But since you are unable to even explain how one goes from the biblical text to your conclusions you simply claim it is not a theory at all.

But if it is not a theory then it is the biblical text.

You have already called the biblical text as a belief "foolishness". Now you are elevating your understanding to Scripture itself and yourself to the position of God.


You have not even done the very basic task in explaining your theory. You have not explained why legal justice is divine justice. You have not explained how punishing Jedus for our sins would allow us to escape punishment. You have not explained how forgiving our sins would somehow make us reconciled to God.

You can't because you merely believe the conclusions the men you worship gave you.


Penal Substitution Theory is far too superficial. It does nothing to reconcile God and man. It merely tries to address how God can not punish evil acts.


If you could take a step back and look, you would see the flaw. But you can't any more than a Mormon can step back and objectively look at the teachings they have been taught by their "God-given" teachers to believe.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Bottom line.....if God punished Jesus instead of punishing us nothing would have been accomplished by the cross.

We do not fall short of the glory of God for lack of punishment.

@Zaatar71 's theory is too superficial. On the Cross God was reconciling man to Himself, not counting man's sins against them. The first part is important.
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
By "heresy" I mean a false doctrine with the standard being God's Word. I know the theory is orthodox within "Christisnity" as a whole. But so is Open Theism.

Yes, I am saying that Calvinists hold to "another gospel", many do alongside the gospel of Jesus Christ, others just that "other gospel".

I have already said this. A Calvinist can also be a Christian, but they can also just be a Calvinist.
By the very definitio n given to us though in the bible, if we as Calvinists do indeed hold and teach and preach anotjher gospel, then this would fall upon all of us then

The phrase "if any preach another gospel let them be anathema" is from the New Testament book of Galatians 1:8-9, as found on Bible.com. It means that anyone who preaches a gospel contrary to the one the apostle Paul taught should be cursed, damned, or excommunicated from the Christian community. The statement emphasizes the importance of the gospel message as taught by Paul and his divine authority for delivering it, not as a human tradition.

Would you agree with this then?
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
By the very definitio n given to us though in the bible, if we as Calvinists do indeed hold and teach and preach anotjher gospel, then this would fall upon all of us then

The phrase "if any preach another gospel let them be anathema" is from the New Testament book of Galatians 1:8-9, as found on Bible.com. It means that anyone who preaches a gospel contrary to the one the apostle Paul taught should be cursed, damned, or excommunicated from the Christian community. The statement emphasizes the importance of the gospel message as taught by Paul and his divine authority for delivering it, not as a human tradition.

Would you agree with this then?
I do agree that a condemnation will fall upon those who teach Calvinism (this was Paul's warning about people wanting to teach).

And yes, those who teach Calvinism should be removed from Christian congregations as they teach a faith other than "the faith once delivered".

But this applies to anybody who chooses to teach their own understanding rather than God's words. I would say the same if people chose to teach Luther's theory.


Think of the damage that has been done to Christian theology simply because this theory was allowed. At one time most Baptists rejected this theory. Now most accept it.

IMHO this failure to guard against this theory has contributed to a lot to our faith being downgraded in many congregations. It has led to easy-believism (as Calvinism is the ultimate form of easy-believism). It has led to a concentration on sins rather than a focus on Christ and sanctification.

Anytime we choose a superficial "gospel" we become a lukewarm church at best. Anytime we replace the gospel of Jesus Christ with this superficial substitute we cease being a church.

That is why I point out that a person can be a Christian and a Calvinist, but they can also just be a Calvinist.


Look at you. Do you really believe that if Jesus suffered the punishment for your actions God would be just to allow you to escape the wrath to come?

He wouldn't. If Jesus suffered your punishment for your sins this would not make a hill of beans difference when God separates the people as a shepheard separates goats from sheep. You would still fall short of God's glory. You would still face the second death.

Why? Because your faith was misplaced. You thought all you needed was somebody else to be accountable for your actions. But you ate not condemned for your actions. You are condemned because you fall short of God's glory. You sin because you fall short of God's glory.


What you need is a Savior who would reconcile man to God. This would by necessity mean forgiveness of sins. But it would be much deeper. You could have faith in this Savior, not because He was punished instead of you but because He is the reconciliation of God and man.

At Judgment you would then stand before God as a new creation in the very image of Christ. You would not be looking for somebody to give you their righteousness in order to cover your unrighteousness but you would actually be righteous.


But to answer your question, "yes". I agree with Scripture and those who teach Calvinism (as I once did) need to be cast out of the congregation. They need to repent. Teachers will be held to a higher standard. And if churches did thus centuries ago we would not have the issue today (although we may have other issues....men always have theories and men always want a type of easy believism).
 
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