Drifting to war.

@Silverhair

I think the ultimate issue has been pointed at by @Van . Many in the US want to return to a state where the US does not rely on other nations. At the same time most, if not all, of our alies rely on the US.

The difference is the US can survive without those countries, but those countries cannot without the US.

I agree with @Van that a sovereign nation should not be dependent on another nation for its existence. Today, most are.

JonC said:

@Silverhair

I think the ultimate issue has been pointed at by @Van . Many in the US want to return to a state where the US does not rely on other nations. At the same time most, if not all, of our alies rely on the US.

The difference is the US can survive without those countries, but those countries cannot without the US.

I agree with @Van that a sovereign nation should not be dependent on another nation for its existence. Today, most are.

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Odd that you would say the US can survive without the other nations. They clearly require major inputs from other countries just to exist but those in the US have been told for so long that they do not they actually believe it.

But then again the US could exist at about a 1900's level but not as a modern society.

Silverhair said:

63% of U.S. crude oil imports come from Canada

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In perspective, 97% of Alberta’s oil exports go to the US. It is a different story when you see both sides.

Ben1445 said:

In perspective, 97% of Alberta’s oil exports go to the US. It is a different story when you see both sides.

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You are not telling me something I do not know. That is why we want to get a pipeline to the north coast and also to the east coast.

Canada has had a good relationship with the US but under Trum* that has become an untrustworthy one due to his erratic behaviour.

Now all we have to do is get rid of the Liberal government so we can let business do what it does best.

Six hour warning -
This thread will be closed no sooner than 1100 GMT 5 am EST / 2 am PT

Silverhair said:

You are not telling me something I do not know. That is why we want to get a pipeline to the north coast and also to the east coast.

Canada has had a good relationship with the US but under Trum* that has become an untrustworthy one due to his erratic behaviour.

Now all we have to do is get rid of the Liberal government so we can let business do what it does best.

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I didn’t figure it was something you didn’t know. It is just the side of the picture that deflates your position a bit.
It’s the side you didn’t say. I figured you knew it.

Untrustworthy? I think you misinterpret. Unstable? I’ll give you that. There is always uncertainty in life. Has Trump gone against the agreement he made? When he goes back on his own word I’ll give you untrustworthy. But you must be fair at the same time. If things change, as things do, expect adjustments one way or another. It doesn’t make people dishonest plainly on adjusting to the current state of affairs. It’s life.

Ben1445 said:

I didn’t figure it was something you didn’t know. It is just the side of the picture that deflates your position a bit.
It’s the side you didn’t say. I figured you knew it.

Untrustworthy? I think you misinterpret. Unstable? I’ll give you that. There is always uncertainty in life. Has Trump gone against the agreement he made? When he goes back on his own word I’ll give you untrustworthy. But you must be fair at the same time. If things change, as things do, expect adjustments one way or another. It doesn’t make people dishonest plainly on adjusting to the current state of affairs. It’s life.

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Let me see, why would the world see the US as untrustworthy. Perhaps because of the off the wall comments of Trum*. Threaten tariffs if he does not get his way, tariffs because a country signs a deal that he does not like. invade another country & kidnap the leader.

Agreements do not seem to mean anything to him.

I can understand why you will defend what he has done but he does not understand the rule of law or perhaps he just thinks it does not apply to him. In either case he has dismantled in one year what was gained over eighty years.

He thinks tariffs will make the US great again but the reality is that they only cost the US citizen money through higher prices.

Silverhair said:

Odd that you would say the US can survive without the other nations. They clearly require major inputs from other countries just to exist but those in the US have been told for so long that they do not they actually believe it.

But then again the US could exist at about a 1900's level but not as a modern society.

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I think you misunderstood my statements.

The goal is to be ss self sufficient as possible. As it is now we do need imports. But there is not a single nation that the US is dependent upon.

There are materials, like tin, that the US imports because we do not have a high concentration (it would be very much cost prohibitive to rely on US tin).

Then there are elements like cobalt which Canada exports but is not mined significantly in the US because we can import it cheaper (and environmental concerns over mining).

My point is that the US could relatively easily survive without Canada, not that the US would maintain its economy without replacing Canadian imports should the relationship be severed all together. If the US stopped imports from Canada today then we would have to rely more on Asian nations.

Here is our reliance (main points):

1. Canada is our biggest supplier of imported crude oil. 64% of the oil we use is produced domestically while the rest is imported (with Canada supplying about 60% of imported oil). The US can meet 100% of its natural gas needs domestically.

2. The US is the largest investor in Canada.

3. Canada depends on the US for 74% of its exported trade. Canada is one of the largest importers of US products (the US depends on Canada for 16% of its exported trade).

4. Militarily Canada cannot defend itself against major conventional invasion but relies on the US military. Canada has a history of under funding its military while relying on the US to provide protection.

WHY BRING THIS UP?

1. The US and Canada are tied at the hip. Both benefit from the relationship. But the US is not dependent on Canada in the same sence that Canada is dependent on the US.

2. The "complaint" is that the relationship between the US and Canada has been a bit lopsided.

It has never legitimately been an issue of cutting off Canada, but rather establishing a more fair trade based on contribution rather than economic need.

Silverhair said:

He thinks tariffs will make the US great again but the reality is that they only cost the US citizen money through higher prices.

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I agree that tariffs risk raising prices in the US, costing citizens money that may not be offset by tax cuts.

But these tariffs are not, apparently, planned to be permanently imposed (at the rate proposed, we have always had tariffs).

Your mistake is in the word "only".

One reason is tariffs between the US and Canada will harm Canada to a greater degree. The last economic report was concerned that the tariffs would push Canada into a recession while the US would experience inflation. Canadian citizens will suffer far worse.

Here I view Trump as bullying to get his way. He has said as much (that it will increase prices in the US if allowed to continue, but would accomplish the goal as Canada cannot weather the economic impact).

Another reason is that tariffs have already reflected in companies reinvesting in the US. I would call this time in history a business "boom", at least where I live. The area is growing faster than I have seen since moving here (which is both good and bad).

But the bottom line is I believe Trump knows that, economically, he holds the stronger hand and is using that to try and get his way.

Silverhair said:

Let me see, why would the world see the US as untrustworthy. Perhaps because of the off the wall comments of Trum*. Threaten tariffs if he does not get his way, tariffs because a country signs a deal that he does not like. invade another country & kidnap the leader.

Agreements do not seem to mean anything to him.

I can understand why you will defend what he has done but he does not understand the rule of law or perhaps he just thinks it does not apply to him. In either case he has dismantled in one year what was gained over eighty years.

He thinks tariffs will make the US great again but the reality is that they only cost the US citizen money through higher prices.

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Not trustworthy over tariffs? You are just whining. You better believe that he will impose tariffs. You can trust that he will.
Do your executive officers impose any penalties? Your police don’t have jails? There are no teeth to your executive officers commands? Or you just ignore them?
The world has been playing on the edge and over the edge of the line for a long while. The only reason you have got away with the US supporting other countries with our labour is because we have had dishonest politicians who receive kickbacks from all of you money laundering socialist and communist countries. It is time that countries behave. The same way you are tired of Alberta paying for all of Canada and getting nothing in return.
But Alberta is not to be trusted right now. They are talking about independence and don’t want to support the rest of your country without any kind of benefit. It is too bad that your province can’t be trusted.

Silverhair said:

If you want to hear an adult speak then listen to Carney.

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A simple 'Thank you' to the USA from Canada is not much to ask. You are welcome for our protection.

Mikoo said:

A simple 'Thank you' to the USA from Canada is not much to ask. You are welcome for our protection.

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Thank you for what? Why do you thank someone for being a jerk? The US has tied to bully the world but it has not worked out as it would have liked.

Trum* is just doing what he has always done so I am not surprised by it. But the world is turning away from the US as it has become an untrustworthy nation.

Will we trade with the US, sure. Just as we will trade with China, the EU, India etc.

Silverhair said:

Thank you for what? Why do you thank someone for being a jerk? The US has tied to bully the world but it has not worked out as it would have liked.

Trum* is just doing what he has always done so I am not surprised by it. But the world is turning away from the US as it has become an untrustworthy nation.

Will we trade with the US, sure. Just as we will trade with China, the EU, India etc.

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You should also stop Alberta from being a jerk. They should continue equalization payments in perpetuity and like it.

Ben1445 said:

Not trustworthy over tariffs? You are just whining. You better believe that he will impose tariffs. You can trust that he will.
Do your executive officers impose any penalties? Your police don’t have jails? There are no teeth to your executive officers commands? Or you just ignore them?
The world has been playing on the edge and over the edge of the line for a long while. The only reason you have got away with the US supporting other countries with our labour is because we have had dishonest politicians who receive kickbacks from all of you money laundering socialist and communist countries. It is time that countries behave. The same way you are tired of Alberta paying for all of Canada and getting nothing in return.
But Alberta is not to be trusted right now. They are talking about independence and don’t want to support the rest of your country without any kind of benefit. It is too bad that your province can’t be trusted.

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You are funny when you get upset when the mirror is held up to the US. The US seems to think everyone wants to be like them, wrong.

Funny how the US thinks they are so good at trade negotiations and then complain that they are being taken advantage of.

Silverhair said:

You are funny when you get upset when the mirror is held up to the US. The US seems to think everyone wants to be like them, wrong.

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The truth stings when you apply it to yourself, doesn’t it?

Silverhair said:

Funny how the US thinks they are so good at trade negotiations and then complain that they are being taken advantage of.

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Tired of being taken advantage of.
Better at negotiating now.

Ben1445 said:

You should also stop Alberta from being a jerk. They should continue equalization payments in perpetuity and like it.

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What money has the US sent to any country that they did not demand repayment for in one way or another?

Silverhair said:

What money has the US sent to any country that they did not demand repayment for in one way or another?

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We the people don’t count overpayments to corrupt politicians as speaker fees as repayment.

Ben1445 said:

The truth stings when you apply it to yourself, doesn’t it?

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What truth would that be? Since you clearly do not understand the so call equalization payments that were set up by the Liberal gov so that it favors the east.

But since you seem to think the US has been so badly treated then why were they so willing to continue in those bad deals? You must have some really dumb or corrupt leaders down there.

And look how smart all those other countries were so that they could take advantage of the US.

Ben1445 said:

We the people don’t count overpayments to corrupt politicians as speaker fees as repayment.

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So you are saying that Trum* is corrupt? If so why do you support him?

Silverhair said:

What truth would that be? Since you clearly do not understand the so call equalization payments that were set up by the Liberal gov so that it favors the east.

But since you seem to think the US has been so badly treated then why were they so willing to continue in those bad deals? You must have some really dumb or corrupt leaders down there.

And look how smart all those other countries were so that they could take advantage of the US.

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Yep. And a generation of voters are tired of it and found someone to fix it.
But coming off of welfare is difficult. You seem to know exactly what I am referring to with sarcasm about your equalization payments. You expect Ottawa to give up a cash cow easily? We don’t expect other nations to give up their cash cow easily either.