Songs and Christian Liberty

Charlie24 said:

Our pastor tell new members to honor the Lord with the best they have, show respect to the One who gave Himself for you.

Our pastor does not enforce a dress code, he leaves that to conviction of the soul and heart.

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Oh...I agree with that. Honor God by GIVING your best (not by wearing your best clothes as this is in violation of God's command).

Maybe it would be good for those accustomed to wearing costly clothes and jewelry to sell those things and give the money to God while also being obedient in how they dress.


Do you believe those two passages instructing Christians to dress modestly and not wear their best is correct or do you believe your pastor is correct when he tells his congregation to wear the best they own?

JonC said:

Oh...I agree with that. Honor God by GIVING your best (not by wearing your best clothes as this is in violation of God's command).

Maybe it would be good for those accustomed to wearing costly clothes and jewelry to sell those things and give the money to God while also being obedient in how they dress.


Do you believe those two passages instructing Christians to dress modestly and not wear their best is correct or do you believe your pastor is correct when he tells his congregation to wear the best they own?

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Ok, show the same respect to the Lord as you would a football game, or a backyard cookout.

As for me, I will wear my best to the house of the Lord.

JonC said:

A suit and tie is worldly- it has been the worldly symbol of secular power and success for a few centuries.

If the singer were wearing a suit and tie would you condemn him for his dress?

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Well, I might … if he was wearing a dress.

Rob

Charlie24 said:

Ok, show the same respect to the Lord as you would a football game, or a backyard cookout.

As for me, I will wear my best to the house of the Lord.

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I cannot wear my best as this would be a direct violation of God's command regarding how we are to dress.

I take it this command is not only for worshipping but also outside of church as we live our lives in worship to God.

I get the idea that we determine how we worship based on our conscience but have a bit of a problem when conscious dictates dress in direct violation to God's commands.

Deacon said:

Well, I might … if he was wearing a dress.

Rob

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What about a kilt? That is basically a man dress.

Charlie24 said:

Ok, show the same respect to the Lord as you would a football game, or a backyard cookout.

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Wait....you wear a suit to a football game or back yard cookout???

I don't go to football games. But I would wear shorts and a t-shirt to a baseball game or backyard cookout.

I do not wear shorts to church. But that is because I have sexy knees and those women may be tempted to stare.

Actually, I do not wear shorts to church services because its indoors, could be chilly...I do wear shorts to church cookouts. And my knees are not sexy...23 years in the Army...scars and a partial replacement....kinda ugly knees).

xlsdraw said:

A genuine apology will never happen. His track record is long.

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You want me to apologize for saying that we are commanded not to judge the worship of other Christians, that Christ will make them stand??

You are correct. I will NEVER apologize for Scripture.

And yes, my track record is long (although not as long as I wished). I am not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ and I am not ashamed of His Word. I am unapologetically Christian.

xlsdraw said:

He's been the "Christian Heckler" as long I have been on this forum. He knows exactly what he's doing and he's proud of it.

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No, I am not proud of reposting Scripture or pointing out when men fall short of obedience to God. That is nothing to be proud of as we have at times all fallen short.

But yes, I do know exactly what I am doing.

On the thread in question I was posting the Worship & Praise music many of us sing praising God in our church services.

On this thread I am insisting that Christians should be obedient to God even when their preferences lead them to be disobedient.


I am actually surprised that so many (actually, it is very few but still more than I thought we would have on a Christian board) support the idea that it is our role to condemb the worship of believers and call using the piano in church "satanic" by slandering anybody who objects.

Why do you believe Christians should remain silent when other professing Christians declare their worship "satanic" for using a piano to accompany hymns?

Why do you believe it is offensive to call out Christians who declare the worship of believers as rejected by God because it does not meet their preferences?

JonC said:

I cannot wear my best as this would be a direct violation of God's command regarding how we are to dress.

I take it this command is not only for worshipping but also outside of church as we live our lives in worship to God.

I get the idea that we determine how we worship based on our conscience but have a bit of a problem when conscious dictates dress in direct violation to God's commands.

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Ok, I think I get it.

Ben1445 said:

I did not start this thread.

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But you should have.

As a Christian you should have spoken up for other believers being attacked by "Christians" saying they are satanic for using a paino to accompany their hymns.

As a Christian you should have spoken up when other "Christians" posted that God rejects the praise of believers who sing praise and worship music.

As a Christian you should have spoken up when a couple of members introduced (probably innocently on their part) 60 year old racist propaganda into their arguments.

As a Christian you should have pointed to God's Word as it relates to judging believers apart from what is written in Scripture.

But you didn't.

Instead you chose to attack me for defending Christians who use the piano and organ in worship.

Instead you chose to attack me for saying each church has the liberty to choose their style of worship and no Christian should condemn other believers for that choice.

Instead of standing for God's Word, Instead of encouraging believers in their worship (regardless of styles), instead of praising God that believers are worshipping Him with hymns, with praise music, with Latin music, with African music, with Middle Eastern music....whatever their musical traditions....you chose to join in condemning these children of God because their culture is different from your own.


There is little sadder than lukewarm Christians who lacks the spine to speak up when their brethren are attacked.

We have a Hispanic Baptist church down the road.
Yes, they sing songs using Hispanic music.
Yes, they use Hispanic instruments.
No, I cannot understand a word they are singing (I know some of the words when I recognize a tune).

But I will defend them against "Christians" who call their praise demonic or say God will not accept their worship until they adopt our traditional hymns.

JonC said:

No, I am not proud of reposting Scripture or pointing out when men fall short of obedience to God. That is nothing to be proud of as we have at times all fallen short.

But yes, I do know exactly what I am doing.

On the thread in question I was posting the Worship & Praise music many of us sing praising God in our church services.

On this thread I am insisting that Christians should be obedient to God even when their preferences lead them to be disobedient.


I am actually surprised that so many (actually, it is very few but still more than I thought we would have on a Christian board) support the idea that it is our role to condemb the worship of believers and call using the piano in church "satanic" by slandering anybody who objects.

Why do you believe Christians should remain silent when other professing Christians declare their worship "satanic" for using a piano to accompany hymns?

Why do you believe it is offensive to call out Christians who declare the worship of believers as rejected by God because it does not meet their preferences?

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If those musicians in the video you posted had a heart for God they would be ashamed to present themselves in such manner.

But I can understand why they're not ashamed, you a professing believer in Christ can't even see it.

Male adornment is not directly commanded, but can be understood as being similar to how females are commanded to dress.

1 Timothy 2

9 I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, adorning themselves, not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes,

10 but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.

1 Peter 3

3 Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear—

4 but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious.

5 For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, by submitting to their own husbands,

6 as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord. And you are her children, if you do good and do not fear anything that is frightening.

7 Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered.

Charlie24 said:

Ok, I think I get it.

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Great!

I am just not sure where the line is drawn.

Is it the general population of where one lives?

I could not, in good conscience, wear a $300 suit to church knowing that most there could not afford a $50 suit. I just could not do it.

I would rather continue in my $50 outfit ($29 Lee jeans, $20 shirt) and use the rest to meet the needs of others.

But I am a younger old guy. I was 21 or 22 when Schindler's List came out. I only saw it once. I do not remember it. BUT I remember the end when, despite all he had done, Schindler lamented the gold ring on his finger because it could have saved more lives. That made an impression on me, perhaps because I was at an impressionable age, that it may not have done were I older.

Not that I do not spend more than I should (I like to travel). But ever sence then I appreciate modest clothes. My wedding band is gold...but white gold (and plain). My watch is expensive (you get what you pay for with watches) but plain (titanium).

That said, I truly believe it is a matter of conscious. But I cannot get over those commands to dress as the common man.


How do you deal with those commands?

JonC said:

Great!

I am just not sure where the line is drawn.

Is it the general population of where one lives?

I could not, in good conscience, wear a $300 suit to church knowing that most there could not afford a $50 suit. I just could not do it.

I would rather continue in my $50 outfit ($29 Lee jeans, $20 shirt) and use the rest to meet the needs of others.

But I am a younger old guy. I was 21 or 22 when Schindler's List came out. I only saw it once. I do not remember it. BUT I remember the end when, despite all he had done, Schindler lamented the gold ring on his finger because it could have saved more lives. That made an impression on me, perhaps because I was at an impressionable age, that it may not have done were I older.

Not that I do not spend more than I should (I like to travel). But ever sence then I appreciate modest clothes. My wedding band is gold...but white gold (and plain). My watch is expensive (you get what you pay for with watches) but plain (titanium).

That said, I truly believe it is a matter of conscious. But I cannot get over those commands to dress as the common man.


How do you deal with those commands?

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Jon, I don't know what to say but to dress for the occasion.

Wear shorts and a t-shirt to a backyard bbq, would you wear that to your daughters wedding, I don't think so. It's just common sense.

If you go to a ball game, wear jeans and a t-shirt, would you wear that to a funeral of a loved one? Just common sense.

When you go to Church to honor our Lord, what apparel is common sense?

JonC said:

But you should have.

As a Christian you should have spoken up for other believers being attacked by "Christians" saying they are satanic for using a paino to accompany their hymns.

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I did. See post 2 of the thread that prompted you to start yours.

JonC said:

As a Christian you should have spoken up when other "Christians" posted that God rejects the praise of believers who sing praise and worship music.

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Considering I never got an answer to what we we talking about until the end of the thread, there was no point in answering until I had heard the matter out.
I didn’t engage everyone in the thread.

JonC said:

As a Christian you should have spoken up when a couple of members introduced (probably innocently on their part) 60 year old racist propaganda into their arguments.

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I have no idea what you are talking about but go ahead, play the race card if that is all you have.

JonC said:

As a Christian you should have pointed to God's Word as it relates to judging believers apart from what is written in Scripture.

But you didn't.

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I did and I quoted it to you. You ignore it because you are self righteous.

JonC said:

Instead you chose to attack me for defending Christians who use the piano and organ in worship.

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We use piano and organ !
What are you blabbering on about??

JonC said:

Instead you chose to attack me for saying each church has the liberty to choose their style of worship and no Christian should condemn other believers for that choice.

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I didn’t attack you. You have an inferiority complex that is showing up right now.
I told you that it is not right for Christians to say:

JonC said:

“@Ben1445 posted that he cannot not discern the difference between CWM (Praise) and secular rock music. That is fair as our ears are not tuned to genres that are foreign to us.

@Charlie24 posted that the Holy Spirit rejects the worship of Christians singing this music.

Others on this board describe praise and worship music as "satanic".

I thought it would be interesting to start a thread about this "worldly" and "demonic" rock music Baptists are using to worship God in vain.

The criteria is the songs posted have to be of actual CWM (worship and praise) as churches use (not at some concert or in some media format different from corporate worship).

So put in your ear plugs kiddos, fasten your seat belts...

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This is nothing less than doing intentionally in someone’s face what they have told you they believe is sin.

It is not the discussion. It is the attitude that you post it with.

JonC said:

Instead of standing for God's Word, Instead of encouraging believers in their worship (regardless of styles), instead of praising God that believers are worshipping Him with hymns, with praise music, with Latin music, with African music, with Middle Eastern music....whatever their musical traditions....you chose to join in condemning these children of God because their culture is different from your own.

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You don’t have any clear idea of what actually happened in that thread. I was yelled at for appearing to be on your side. But you are too self centered to notice.

JonC said:

There is little sadder than lukewarm Christians who lacks the spine to speak up when their brethren are attacked.

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I have stood up for both sides being attacked. That is why you are upset with me. It is because I stood up for the conscience of those whose culture offends you.

JonC said:

We have a Hispanic Baptist church down the road.
Yes, they sing songs using Hispanic music.
Yes, they use Hispanic instruments.
No, I cannot understand a word they are singing (I know some of the words when I recognize a tune).

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Praise the Lord for people who are Spanish and go to church. I don’t know what that has to do with this.

JonC said:

But I will defend them against "Christians" who call their praise demonic or say God will not accept their worship until they adopt our traditional hymns.

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I didn’t see anyone call out a particular demographic as demonic.
Please show me what I missed.

Charlie24 said:

If those musicians in the video you posted had a heart for God they would be ashamed to present themselves in such manner.

But I can understand why they're not ashamed, you a professing believer in Christ can't even see it.

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There is a category of Christianity that is rich and increased with goods and has need of nothing. A Christianity that needs no correction. Revelation chapter three if I remember correctly. Clearly there is no such thing as a Christian who will not stand before God with correction to be made. Nadab and Abihu were just expressing themselves in their own ways.
Why should we expect that God will judge their expression of worship but not ours?

Charlie24 said:

Jon, I don't know what to say but to dress for the occasion.

Wear shorts and a t-shirt to a backyard bbq, would you wear that to your daughters wedding, I don't think so. It's just common sense.

If you go to a ball game, wear jeans and a t-shirt, would you wear that to a funeral of a loved one? Just common sense.

When you go to Church to honor our Lord, what apparel is common sense?

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I agree with dressing for the occasion. But this is subjective and cultural.

Did Paul carry around walking clothes and Sunday clothes? Probably not. That was not the custom.

My cousin died last month. I wore jeans and a short sleeve button up shirt.

I think I wore jeans and a nice shirt to the last wedding I attended.

For church I dress nice. But nice is subjective (that guy you said was blasphemous for praising God while wearing a black t-shirt was dressed nice to me).

For work I wear jeans and a shirt with a pocket (reading glasses). In the summer its shorts and the same shirt. Never anything I would hate to loose if it becomes contaminated.

Eating at a nice restaurant? Jeans and a nice shirt. Thankfully the "fine dining" today foes not have the dress code of yesterday. I tend to drop food occasionally.


@Charlie24. I get where you are coming from. I am by no means saying you should not dress as your conscious dictates. We all have our idea of what is ideal.

I am, however, saying that you should not impose your conscience on other people.


Is the time changing from your ideal culture? No. It has already changed.

And you have with it. You were sporting the Gavin Newsom look ;-).

Wearing a suit without a tie has become acceptable because the culture of the world has changed. But this became very popular in the 1970's with the youth (a worldly shift in acceptable fashion). More recently it has made a comeback as business casual.

Now it is business attire to wear a jacket over a t-shirt and jeans.

Weird....huh?

One day it will be business attire to wear blue Jean shorts with tank tops. But don't worry...I doubt we will be around to see it.

Ben1445 said:

There is a category of Christianity that is rich and increased with goods and has need of nothing. A Christianity that needs no correction. Revelation chapter three if I remember correctly. Clearly there is no such thing as a Christian who will not stand before God with correction to be made. Nadab and Abihu were just expressing themselves in their own ways.
Why should we expect that God will judge their expression of worship but not ours?

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Yes, the offering of strange fire.

JonC said:

I agree with dressing for the occasion. But this is subjective and cultural.

Did Paul carry around walking clothes and Sunday clothes? Probably not. That was not the custom.

My cousin died last month. I wore jeans and a short sleeve button up shirt.

I think I wore jeans and a nice shirt to the last wedding I attended.

For church I dress nice. But nice is subjective (that guy you said was blasphemous for praising God while wearing a black t-shirt was dressed nice to me).

For work I wear jeans and a shirt with a pocket (reading glasses). In the summer its shorts and the same shirt. Never anything I would hate to loose if it becomes contaminated.

Eating at a nice restaurant? Jeans and a nice shirt. Thankfully the "fine dining" today foes not have the dress code of yesterday. I tend to drop food occasionally.


@Charlie24. I get where you are coming from. I am by no means saying you should not dress as your conscious dictates. We all have our idea of what is ideal.

I am, however, saying that you should not impose your conscience on other people.


Is the time changing from your ideal culture? No. It has already changed.

And you have with it. You were sporting the Gavin Newsom look ;-).

Wearing a suit without a tie has become acceptable because the culture of the world has changed. But this became very popular in the 1970's with the youth (a worldly shift in acceptable fashion). More recently it has made a comeback as business casual.

Now it is business attire to wear a jacket over a t-shirt and jeans.

Weird....huh?

One day it will be business attire to wear blue Jean shorts with tank tops. But don't worry...I doubt we will be around to see it.

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We will all stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ (for the saved only) and we will answer for what we have done is this body, whether it be good or bad.

I want to enter into that Judgment as one who honored the Lord with all he had.

Ben1445 said:

I did. See post 2 of the thread that prompted you to start yours.


Considering I never got an answer to what we we talking about until the end of the thread, there was no point in answering until I had heard the matter out.
I didn’t engage everyone in the thread.


I have no idea what you are talking about but go ahead, play the race card if that is all you have.


I did and I quoted it to you. You ignore it because you are self righteous.


We use piano and organ !
What are you blabbering on about??


I didn’t attack you. You have an inferiority complex that is showing up right now.
I told you that it is not right for Christians to say:

This is nothing less than doing intentionally in someone’s face what they have told you they believe is sin.

It is not the discussion. It is the attitude that you post it with.


You don’t have any clear idea of what actually happened in that thread. I was yelled at for appearing to be on your side. But you are too self centered to notice.


I have stood up for both sides being attacked. That is why you are upset with me. It is because I stood up for the conscience of those whose culture offends you.


Praise the Lord for people who are Spanish and go to church. I don’t know what that has to do with this.



I didn’t see anyone call out a particular demographic as demonic.
Please show me what I missed.

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I told you that I have absolutely no idea of your complaint. It made no sence to me.

1. The OP of that thread was concerned with using musical instruments in church. This, per the OP, made the worship "demonic".

It was a general statement. You sing a hymn accompanied by a piano? That is satanic.


2. Then it went to Christians who praise God using Worship & Praise music.

Members ridiculed these Christians by posting an absurd video clip and some "Christian Metalcore" song.

I stated that we should not condemn the praise of other Christians.

The response was that God rejects the worship of believers who use contemporary tunes.

Later it was decided that wearing a t-shirt while singing a hymn was blasphemous.

3. It then went to bring up racist propaganda (the same stuff I heard as a kid in the mid 70's...but a couple of decades older). I doubt the one who posted it meant it as racist, but that was its origins.

The idea is there is a "rock beat" that somehow controlls people. This came from the "African beat" which was demonic (never-mind Christians used that long before Western hymns were written). It was initially designed to degrade a race of people and prevent the integration of White and Black kids. The fear was that White people were loosing their culture.


But the first two were the claims I was mostly arguing against.

I do not believe a Christian has the right to declare another believers worship is rejected by God because their music is different.

I believe churches should worship God authentically - whether it is hymns, worship & praise, gospel music, Hispanic music....and they should not condemn the worship of one another.


That was ALL I was saying. And that is why I still do not understand your attack against me.

I do not know your complaint- except that you find it offensive that I said not to judge hpw others sing praises as Jesus will make them stand.