The "D" Chart: Part Deux

SovereignGrace said:

I’ve shown you multiple failures of prophecies taught by dispensationalists, and I’m the one lost in a sea of false prophecy?

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Charlie24 said:

And where do we read it was Herod's temple of that day that the man of sin sat in?

SG, my friend, you are lost in a sea of false prophecy.

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Charlie24 said:

I don't like to be rude but we're talking about the Word of God here, and I have no choice.

What you have shown me is that you have not one iota of an idea what you're talking about, especially Dispensationalism.

I'm sorry it's me but someone has to point it out.

What you have posted all day is nonsense, dreamed up by the fools you have chosen to believe.

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Charlie24 said:

I don't like to be rude but we're talking about the Word of God here, and I have no choice.

What you have shown me is that you have not one iota of an idea what you're talking about, especially Dispensationalism.

I'm sorry it's me but someone has to point it out.

What you have posted all day is nonsense, dreamed up by the fools you have chosen to believe.

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SovereignGrace said:

The passage in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 says the man of lawlessness “takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.” The text does not explicitly say “Herod’s temple,” but in its first-century context, this is clear. John and Paul wrote before AD 70. The only functioning Jewish temple at that time was Herod’s temple in Jerusalem, so that would have been the temple referenced. There was no other “temple of God” for the Jewish people.

The phrase “taking his seat” reflects the type of idolatrous claims made by rulers like Nero Caesar, who persecuted Christians, claimed divine status, and opposed God’s authority. Scholars understand the “temple” as both literal and symbolic: literally, the Jewish temple in Jerusalem; symbolically, God’s covenant authority, which the man of lawlessness arrogates to himself.

Historically, this fits Nero. He was active during Paul and John’s time, persecuted believers, and represented the forces of lawlessness that Paul said were “already at work” (2 Thessalonians 2:7). In Revelation 13:18, John encodes Nero’s identity through gematria: the Hebrew transliteration of “Nero Caesar” (נרון קסר, Nron Qsr) adds up to 666, the number of the Beast. This allowed John to warn first-century readers without naming Nero directly, while clearly identifying the oppressive ruler behind the prophecy.

Thus, Paul’s description in 2 Thessalonians 2 and John’s depiction of the Beast in Revelation are closely connected. The man of lawlessness was already active through Nero and his system of persecution. The “sitting in the temple of God” language fits the first-century setting — Herod’s temple was the locus of divine authority — and symbolizes the arrogant assumption of God’s prerogatives. The number 666 emphasizes human imperfection and rebellion, making the connection between the man of lawlessness and Nero clear for first-century readers.

In summary, the man of lawlessness was already at work in Paul and John’s day, and Nero Caesar is the historical figure that best fits both the 2 Thessalonians description and Revelation’s Beast. The prophecy is immediate and historical, not a distant, millennia-future figure.

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Charlie24 said:

Only took 2 sentences.

The popular belief is that John wrote Revelation long after the temple was destroyed in 70 ad.

It's basically some of the Reformed and the Preterists that believe otherwise.

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Charlie24 said:

Only took 2 sentences.

The popular belief is that John wrote Revelation long after the temple was destroyed in 70 ad.

It's basically some of the Reformed and the Preterists that believe otherwise.

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SovereignGrace said:

But Paul wrote he, the man of lawlessness, was already at work in verse 7. It clearly states it, in no uncertain terms.

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Charlie24 said:

Paul said in vs 7 "the mystery of iniquity does already work."

He is referring to exactly what you have been posting all day about letting on man deceive you.

Paul is zeroing in on this mystery of the appearing of the anti-Christ.

Even in Paul's day there was all types of theories going on concerning the mystery of the anti-Christ.

We don't have all of what Paul told them, look at this.

In 2 Thes. 2:5 Paul tells them, don't you remember when I was with you I told you these things.

If we had that conversation from Paul we probably wouldn't be arguing now, we would know.

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easternstar said:

I am not an advocate of 'replacement theology'; however, I also do not believe that Israel/the Jews are the center of God's history and that the church is merely a parenthesis, to be taken out of here so that God can deal with his true focus, the Jews and Israel! To me, that tramples underfoot Christ's work and mission and sets up a two-path approach to salvation -- one for Gentiles and another for Jews.. And the idea that God approves a third temple being built where animals will get their throats slit again is horrrible, repulsive, and an insult to God!

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SovereignGrace said:

I asked ChatGPT this: Failed dispensationalist prophecies from the 1970's? (and yes, I realize its AI and may not be 100% accurate, but I figure its pert neer it)

1. Hal Lindsey – “The Late Great Planet Earth” (1970)

Claim: Lindsey suggested that a series of geopolitical events (such as the rise of the European Common Market, Israel’s 1948 rebirth, and the Cold War tensions) indicated that the end times were imminent. Some readers interpreted this as predicting the rapture and tribulation within their lifetimes.

Outcome: No rapture or tribulation occurred in the 1970s. The book did inspire a generation of evangelical futurists but its time-specific predictions failed.

2. Pat Robertson – Predictions on Israel and Armageddon

Claim: On his television program and in writings, Robertson frequently tied current Middle East conflicts (including the Yom Kippur War of 1973) to biblical prophecy, sometimes suggesting that the “end of the age” was near.

Outcome: None of these specific apocalyptic events occurred in the predicted timeframe.

3. “The Omega Code” / Charles F. “Chuck” Missler type predictions

Claim: Certain dispensationalist authors in the late 1960s–1970s predicted the rapture or Armageddon in the 1970s, often citing numerology, Israel, or political developments as signs.

Outcome: The predicted rapture or world-altering events did not happen.

4. Hal Lindsey’s Date Speculations

Lindsey himself avoided giving an exact date, but many interpreters of his work fixated on the 1970s or early 1980s as the “generation” of the end times due to his interpretation of Israel’s rebirth in 1948 (using a “70-year generation” logic).

Outcome: Again, no rapture, tribulation, or second coming occurred during this period.

Why these failed

Many of these prophecies depended on literalist readings of Daniel, Revelation, and Ezekiel, combined with contemporary events.

They often relied on speculative timelines or symbolic interpretations treated as literal (e.g., the “70 weeks” prophecy, the number of years from Israel’s rebirth).

Dispensationalist futurism is flexible, so when prophecies failed, some adherents reinterpreted them rather than abandoning the framework entirely.

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John of Japan said:

Oh, not ChapGPT for theology. Say it isn't so!! That's the last source on Planet Earth I would use for theology (or any other AI).

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John of Japan said:

Oh, not ChapGPT for theology. Say it isn't so!! That's the last source on Planet Earth I would use for theology (or any other AI).

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SovereignGrace said:

@Ascetic X @Charlie24 @John of Japan


So, what exactly do you see going on today that leads you to believe the rapture is about to take place?

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Charlie24 said:

We're talking a very long period of time and the word "near" covers centuries or more.

Paul gives us some hints as to what will be happening in the end and are happening now.

But ultimately Christ let's us know we will have no idea.

The parable of the 10 virgins shows us it's a complete surprise.

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SovereignGrace said:

Welcome to the thread and quite a good first response in this thread. Dispensationalism rebuilds the wall that Christ tore down, that wall that once separated Jews from proselyte Jews (converted Gentiles to Jewish religion). There is but one ppl of God, one body of Christ, that is comprised of both believing Jews and Gentiles. And no, the church did no replace Israel, but is the consummation of all believers of all time.

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JD731 said:

If you can prove dispensational theology is wrong you can prove that the Bible makes no sense and is not true. Even the life experience of a godly man is dispensational.
1. Born innocent, knowing nothing
2 )becoming conscious of right and wrong
3) Learning one must submit to human government
4) first in a family relationship
5) Then in a moral relationship under God's law that you cannot keep in the flesh
6) Learning God made a way through his son, Christ, to reconcile you, the law breaker, to himself
7) Receiving perfect righteousness bodily in his presence

God is a dispensationalist in all points and his Bible teaches a dispensational format. The epistle to the Romans is outlined with this dispensational format, I believe. You should look for it.

Here is the end of the doctrinal section and it is amazing.

Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles (the church) be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Paul began to speak to the Jews in Romans 7:1 and so we look at these words in a Jewish context until Rom 11:13 where he ends instructing the Jews and turns his attention to the gentiles. This is brilliant, BTW.

Ro 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

Ro 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

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