The Furnace of Affliction

"Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction." Isaiah 48:10

According to God's own testimony, "that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God," (Acts 14:22); and therefore there is no entering into the kingdom of grace here, or the kingdom of glory hereafter, without it. But let this be ever borne in mind, that whatever affliction befalls the saints, it is laid upon them by the hand of God, and that for the express purpose of putting them into a situation and of making them capable of receiving those comforts which God only can bestow.

None but Jesus himself and the Father can comfort a truly afflicted heart. And he can and does from time to time comfort his dear people by a sense of his presence; by a word of power from his gracious lips; by the light of his countenance; by the balm of his atoning blood and dying love; and by the work and witness of the Spirit within. And as they receive this consolation from the mouth of God, their hearts are comforted. How good the Lord is of his own free grace to bestow such blessings upon his redeemed family! May he give us much of them! And may he, wherever he has bestowed upon any of us everlasting consolation, or even a good hope through grace, comfort our hearts as we journey through this valley of tears, and may our consolations be neither few nor small.

- J.C. Philpot, Daily Portions, April 2

KenH said:

"Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction." Isaiah 48:10

According to God's own testimony, "that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God," (Acts 14:22); and therefore there is no entering into the kingdom of grace here, or the kingdom of glory hereafter, without it. But let this be ever borne in mind, that whatever affliction befalls the saints, it is laid upon them by the hand of God, and that for the express purpose of putting them into a situation and of making them capable of receiving those comforts which God only can bestow.

- J.C. Philpot, Daily Portions, April 2

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I would say that afflictions are allowed by God, but not necessarily put on us by God.

Jesus healed, restored sight to the blind, cleansed lepers, cast out demons, and raised the dead. If these afflictions were put upon people by God, then Jesus would be acting in opposition to God.

Apostle Paul’s persecution, which he called a thorn in the flesh, buffeted and hindered Paul. God allowed it and would not stop it, but it is called a messenger of Satan.

Job’s afflictions were allowed by God, but they were put on Job by Satan.

Ascetic X said:

I would say that afflictions are allowed by God, but not necessarily put on us by God.

Jesus healed, restored sight to the blind, cleansed lepers, cast out demons, and raised the dead. If these afflictions were put upon people by God, then Jesus would be acting in opposition to God.

Apostle Paul’s persecution, which he called a thorn in the flesh, buffeted and hindered Paul. God allowed it and would not stop it, but it is called a messenger of Satan.

Job’s afflictions were allowed by God, but they were put on Job by Satan.

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I thoroughly disagree with your viewpoint, which smacks greatly of Deism.

KenH said:

I thoroughly disagree with your viewpoint, which smacks greatly of Deism.

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Explain how my statements are in error:

QUOTE

Jesus healed, restored sight to the blind, cleansed lepers, cast out demons, and raised the dead. If these afflictions were put upon people by God, then Jesus would be acting in opposition to God.

Apostle Paul’s persecution, which he called a thorn in the flesh, buffeted and hindered Paul. God allowed it and would not stop it, but it is called a messenger of Satan.

Job’s afflictions were allowed by God, but they were put on Job by Satan.

END QUOTE

My devout attitude toward God is nothing like Deism, which is an 17th-18th century rationalist philosophy believing in a supreme creator who established natural laws but does not intervene in the universe. It rejects organized religion, miracles, and divine revelation, relying solely on reason and observation of nature. Key figures include Thomas Jefferson, Voltaire, and Thomas Paine.

Ascetic X said:

Explain how my statements are in error:

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I consider any belief system that does not adhere to the Biblical teaching that God is absolutely totally sovereign over His creation, whatever the extent of that lack of adherence to the Biblical teaching, to be that that extent Deistic in practice.

Any amount of Deism is false teaching as it holds that God is not totally absolutely sovereign, but some percentage sovereign, which for different opponents of God's absolute sovereignty might vary.

So what percentage do you place your idea of God's sovereignty at, Ascetic X? 90% or maybe 70% or maybe 40% or maybe 10%?

KenH said:

I consider any belief system that does not adhere to the Biblical teaching that God is absolutely totally sovereign over His creation, whatever the extent of that lack of adherence to the Biblical teaching, to be that that extent Deistic in practice.

Any amount of Deism is false teaching as it holds that God is not totally absolutely sovereign, but some percentage sovereign, which for different opponents of God's absolute sovereignty might vary.

So what percentage do you place your idea of God's sovereignty at, Ascetic X? 90% or maybe 70% or maybe 40% or maybe 10%?

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You misuse the word “deism” — and you employ “sovereignty” to mean control without free will or individual responsibility, distorting God into a puppet master.

You are incapable of addressing my 3 assertions:

Jesus healed, restored sight to the blind, cleansed lepers, cast out demons, and raised the dead. If these afflictions were put upon people by God, then Jesus would be acting in opposition to God.

Apostle Paul’s persecution, which he called a thorn in the flesh, buffeted and hindered Paul. God allowed it and would not stop it, but it is called a messenger of Satan.

Job’s afflictions were allowed by God, but they were put on Job by Satan.

Ascetic X said:

Apostle Paul’s persecution, which he called a thorn in the flesh, buffeted and hindered Paul. God allowed it and would not stop it, but it is called a messenger of Satan.

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Your statement is the first time I have heard the idea that the thorn was persecution. Generally speaking, based on what I have read or heard, commentators say that we don't know what the thorn was; I did hear that maybe it was an eyesight problem, based on Galatians 6:11, but it may be more likely that the apostle Paul was referring to the length of the letter.

But you did remind me of one of my favorite bluegrass songs(I hosted a three-hour bluegrass music radio show on Saturday mornings for around ten years earlier in the 21st century on an internet radio station called World Wide Bluegrass).

Ascetic X said:

Jesus healed, restored sight to the blind, cleansed lepers, cast out demons, and raised the dead. If these afflictions were put upon people by God, then Jesus would be acting in opposition to God.

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Ascetic X said:

Job’s afflictions were allowed by God, but they were put on Job by Satan.

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Hebrews 12:4-13
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children,

My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord,
Nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth,
And scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
and make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.

I would also point out in the two interactions in the book of Job between God and Satan, that it is God who bring up the subject of Job to Satan:

Job 1:8
And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Job 2:3
And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

Also, in Job 2:3 God says that He moved against Job.

KenH said:

Your statement is the first time I have heard the idea that the thorn was persecution. Generally speaking, based on what I have read or heard, commentators say that we don't know what the thorn was; I did hear that maybe it was an eyesight problem, based on Galatians 6:11, but it may be more likely that the apostle Paul was referring to the length of the letter.

But you did remind me of one of my favorite bluegrass songs(I hosted a three-hour bluegrass music radio show on Saturday mornings for around ten years earlier in the 21st century on an internet radio station called World Wide Bluegrass).

Hebrews 12:4-13
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children,

My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord,
Nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth,
And scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
and make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.

I would also point out in the two interactions in the book of Job between God and Satan, that it is God who bring up the subject of Job to Satan:

Job 1:8
And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Job 2:3
And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

Also, in Job 2:3 God says that He moved against Job.

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So if you give all the significance of every word the weight that you do, Satan would be the mover of God.

This is a bit of a problem, No?

Ben1445 said:

So if you give all the significance of every word the weight that you do, Satan would be the mover of God.

This is a bit of a problem, No?

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I have no problem with the Bible at all. I have no problem with God being absolutely totally sovereign. Why should I? God is my Creator, my Potter. I am a mere creature by His creation, mere clay. God does with me as He wills for His purposes and glory.

Why do you think that God said, "thou movedst me?"

KenH said:

I have no problem with the Bible at all. I have no problem with God being absolutely totally sovereign. Why should I? God is my Creator, my Potter. I am a mere creature by His creation, mere clay. God does with me as He wills for His purposes and glory.

Why do you think that God said, "thou movedst me?"

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Based on the principles that I gather from your logic Satan is the first mover, or the mover of God.

I don’t believe that, but it is the logic that you bring to the table.

The Bible interprets itself. When a special phrase is used, we look up other verses where the same phrase was used.

• Numbers 33:55 (ESV): "But if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you, then those of you whom you let remain shall be as barbs in your eyes and thorns in your sides, and they shall trouble you in the land where you dwell".
• Joshua 23:13: Warns that remnant nations would become "scourges" and "thorns in your eyes".

The phrases "thorns in the flesh" and "pricks in the eyes" are biblical metaphors for intense irritation, opposition, and distress.

"Pricks in your eyes" (Numbers 33:55) warns of enemies who corrupt and harass, while Paul’s "thorn in the flesh" (2 Cor. 12:7) refers to a messenger of Satan, commonly interpreted as human persecution, designed to provoke and cause hardship.

• "Pricks in the Eyes" (Old Testament): In Numbers 33:55 and similar passages, this phrase describes the Canaanites who, if allowed to remain, would lead Israel into idolatry and cause constant annoyance, distress, and spiritual distraction.
• "Thorn in the Flesh" (New Testament): 2 Corinthians 12:7 (KJV): "...there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure".
• While some interpret Paul's thorn as a physical ailment, many scholars and commentators connect it to the ongoing, intense persecution and demonic opposition he faced in his ministry. The purpose of this thorn was to keep Paul humble and reliant on God's grace rather than his own strength.

Ben1445 said:

Based on the principles that I gather from your logic Satan is the first mover, or the mover of God.

I don’t believe that, but it is the logic that you bring to the table.

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Why do you think that God said, "thou movedst me?"

Ecclesiastes 7:13-14
Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?
In the day of prosperity be joyful, but in the day of adversity consider: God also hath set the one over against the other, to the end that man should find nothing after him.

KenH said:

Why do you think that God said, "thou movedst me?"

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Because Satan is tempting God.

Ruth 1:13b
For it grieveth me much for your sakes that the hand of the LORD is gone out against me.

Ruth 1:21
I went out full, and the LORD hath brought me home again empty: why then call ye me Naomi, seeing the LORD hath testified against me, and the Almighty hath afflicted me?

Job 2:9-10
Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die.
But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

(emphasis mine)

God fights against evil, He does not cause evil. He allows affliction to happen to us, but He does not cause it. Satan is the cause of disease, destruction, suffering.

Job 1:12

And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Psalm 91:10-11

no evil will befall you, no plague will approach your tent.
For He will command His angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways.

1 John 3:8

For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.



What did Jesus destroy? Blindness, leprosy, disability, disease.

If afflictions were caused by God, then Jesus was opposing God by getting rid of them.

Ascetic X said:

Blindness, leprosy, disability, disease.

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On this earth? Or on the new earth. All those still exist on this earth.

Ascetic X said:

ob 1:12

And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

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Satan is on God's "leash"; just as every creation of God is.

KenH said:

On this earth? Or on the new earth. All those still exist on this earth.

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Where did Jesus do His healings? On this current earth or the new earth?

Ascetic X said:

God fights against evil, He does not cause evil.

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Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

2 Samuel 24:1
And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

Even though God moved David to number the people, yet David admits that he bears the responsibility for the actual act:

2 Samuel 24:10
And David's heart smote him after that he had numbered the people. And David said unto the LORD, I have sinned greatly in that I have done: and now, I beseech thee, O LORD, take away the iniquity of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly.