When was Satan's Fall From Grace?

Greetings to you brother. Grace and Peace to you in our Lord Jesus Christ.

Armchair Apologist said:

My personal position on the matter is that the fall of Lucifer occurred somewhere between Gen 1:31 and 3:1. There is nothing which determines the span of time that had elapsed. Perhaps it was a few days or could have even been several years.

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By "fall of Lucifer" do mean something like his heart turning due to pride or do you also mean the outward act of rebellion. Maybe like a revolt of angels. In other words, was the tempting of Eve his first outward act of defiance?

Armchair Apologist said:

The "Serpent" was evidently one of the creatures of which Satan either took "Possession" of or perhaps he manifest himself in the form of a serpent?

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Or it is figurative language of an actual event. But either way, your point is the same.

Armchair Apologist said:

It also seems quite clear that Satan had already fallen when he appeared before Adam and Eve tempting them.

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In what way is it "quite clear"?

For Example, one might say that Satan had a high status of being stationed (if you will) in the Garden of Eden (Eze 28:13). That would mean Satan may have come into contact with Adam and Eve frequently. One day, one might speculate, pride was conceived in Satan...and he acted. That wouldn't take much time before he deception act (but it concedes it was prior).

Armchair Apologist said:

Even in the age to come when all things are made new, the serpent will continue to slither on the ground and eat dust (Isa 65:25). It is therefore understood that it was the actual creature that was cursed.

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Or if it was figurative language then it would be understood that Satan would continue to be fallen from grace. Crawling on the belly and eating dust is a ancient Hebrew poetic idiom for total defeat, absolute subjugation, and deep disgrace.

Thank you for your time.

Peace to you brother.

Scripture More Accurately said:

According to explicit biblical statements, God did curse the ground for Adam's sake after the Fall, but the text of Genesis 3 does not say anywhere that God cursed Adam and Eve:

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Greetings SMA. Peace to you brother.

Ok, let's travel down that distinction. Now how does that impact our analysis of the fall of Satan?


Peace

Ben1445 said:

The curse on Adam and Eve is given before they sinned.

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Greetings Ben. Grace and peace to you in our Lord Jesus Christ.

Is this a "law" or is this a "curse"?

Peace to you

JD731 said:

I quoted verses that tells us that judgement is based on the deeds done in the body, the works of the flesh. If one casts down the imagination before it becomes a deed then a man is not guilty of carrying the deed to it's end, which is sin.

James 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

1 Corinthians 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body

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It is strange how desperately you cling to the idea that thoughts are not deeds, so you will not be judged for having sinful thoughts. Thoughts are mental deeds and wicked thoughts are sins.

Jesus clearly stated that thinking about adultery is the same sin as doing adultery.

Matthew 5:28

But I say unto you, that whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.



You were given these verses about how wicked thoughts are sins, but you dismiss them.

Proverbs 15:26 The thoughts of the wicked are an abomination to the LORD: but the words of the pure are pleasant words.

Proverbs 24:9 The thought of foolishness is sin: and the scorner is an abomination to men.

Isaiah 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Matthew 9:4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?

James 2:4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?

Moreover, we need forgiveness for our evil thoughts and not just our evil deeds:

Acts 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

JD731 said:

I quoted verses that tells us that judgement is based on the deeds done in the body, the works of the flesh. If one casts down the imagination before it becomes a deed then a man is not guilty of carrying the deed to it's end, which is sin.

James 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

1 Corinthians 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body

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Your understanding is not right because it does not account for all that the Bible explicitly says. Jesus explicitly said that a man who lusts after a woman in his heart commits adultery with her in his heart (Matt. 5:28).

Moreover, Jesus explicitly spoke of thoughts being evil:

Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

Mark 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,

Jesus thus taught that evil thoughts are sin just as murder, adultery, fornication, theft, bearing false witness, and blasphemy are sin.

When everything that Scripture says is accounted for, it is clear that evil thoughts are sin.

Paleouss said:

Greetings to you brother. Grace and Peace to you in our Lord Jesus Christ.

By "fall of Lucifer" do mean something like his heart turning due to pride or do you also mean the outward act of rebellion. Maybe like a revolt of angels. In other words, was the tempting of Eve his first outward act of defiance?

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Isaiah 14 does say "because thou hast said in thine heart..." so we have this. God is omniscient so he was aware before anything was said or done. He did conceive it in his heart before he acted on it. Lucifer had already fallen prior to his act of sedition getting his angels to join in on the plan. The question is "When did God take action and pronounce his judgment?" Another member here has suggested that this was in Genesis 3:14-15 after Adam's fall and what the serpent said to entice Eve was quite similar to what is written in Isa 14 ("I will be like the most high..."). There is nothing which mandates that God would act in judgment upon conception of the deed right?

Paleouss said:

Or it is figurative language of an actual event. But either way, your point is the same.

In what way is it "quite clear"?

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He was acting in an overtly deceitful and sinful manner is he not?

Paleouss said:

For Example, one might say that Satan had a high status of being stationed (if you will) in the Garden of Eden (Eze 28:13). That would mean Satan may have come into contact with Adam and Eve frequently. One day, one might speculate, pride was conceived in Satan...and he acted. That wouldn't take much time before he deception act (but it concedes it was prior).

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This is an interesting take and similar to what the "gap theorists" have proposed that Lucifer was ruler of a "Pre-Adamite" Earth so it could be that he inhabited Eden right along with Adam and Eve? We have very little in scripture so we may only speculate here but such a scenario lends one to become familiar and comfortable in the presence of this creature (serpent)? This would explain why Adam and Eve were so susceptible to this temptation!

Paleouss said:

Or if it was figurative language then it would be understood that Satan would continue to be fallen from grace. Crawling on the belly and eating dust is a ancient Hebrew poetic idiom for total defeat, absolute subjugation, and deep disgrace.

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Satan is referred to as a "serpent" as well as a "dragon." Satan is referred to as being these creatures but is every scriptural mention of dragons or serpents to be automatically construed as being the Devil? Snakes are reptillian creatures and our experience with them today are quite different from the one that Adam and Eve had encountered. The one obvious difference is that snakes today cannot speak nor do they exhibit cognizance or intelligence! We do not know how this serpent looked prior to God's act of judgment. We only know that this act of judgment resulted in the serpent slithering around on its belly and this is characteristic of every snake we find in nature. Isaiah 65:25 speaks of creatures that will be familiar to us in the age to come when the curse is completly removed but the serpent (seems to be the actual creature, not The Serpent who seduced Adam and Eve). Perhaps this is for our example and to the glory of God and serves as a reminder of what God has redeemed us from?

Paleouss said:

Thank you for your time.

Peace to you brother.

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No problem! Thank you for the thought-provoking questions!

Paleouss said:

Greetings Ben. Grace and peace to you in our Lord Jesus Christ.

Is this a "law" or is this a "curse"?

Peace to you

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Deut. 11:26-28

Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse; A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day: And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known

You tell me. It the law that they not eat the fruit or is the law that they die.

If their death is the law, it doesn’t matter if they eat the fruit.
But if death is the consequence or curse of breaking the law, then death is the curse.

Does it not sound strange to you to say that God made a law that Adam and Eve would die?

I am quite sure that the law is do not eat and the consequence is death, and not the other way around.

Scripture More Accurately said:

Your understanding is not right because it does not account for all that the Bible explicitly says. Jesus explicitly said that a man who lusts after a woman in his heart commits adultery with her in his heart (Matt. 5:28).

Moreover, Jesus explicitly spoke of thoughts being evil:

Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

Mark 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,

Jesus thus taught that evil thoughts are sin just as murder, adultery, fornication, theft, bearing false witness, and blasphemy are sin.

When everything that Scripture says is accounted for, it is clear that evil thoughts are sin.

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There are not two sins, one when you think it and one when you do it. You imagine it in your mind and in that stage you can cast it down. It is in the drawing away from the right thinking stage and the conception stage but the finish stage is the doing it that brings forth death. It will be the charge at the great white throne judgement where God says he is going to judge the WORKS of unsaved men. If it is not done in the body it is not a work.


If God says he finally judges the works done in the body, works that are the product of bad thinking, why can't we follow the logic?

Greetings

Paleouss had said...

Paleouss said:

For Example, one might say that Satan had a high status of being stationed (if you will) in the Garden of Eden (Eze 28:13). That would mean Satan may have come into contact with Adam and Eve frequently. One day, one might speculate, pride was conceived in Satan...and he acted. That wouldn't take much time before he deception act (but it concedes it was prior).

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Armchair Apologist replied...

Armchair Apologist said:

This is an interesting take and similar to what the "gap theorists" have proposed that Lucifer was ruler of a "Pre-Adamite" Earth so it could be that he inhabited Eden right along with Adam and Eve? We have very little in scripture so we may only speculate here but such a scenario lends one to become familiar and comfortable in the presence of this creature (serpent)? This would explain why Adam and Eve were so susceptible to this temptation!

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Well, the verse I extrapolate this from is a verse in which I was studying what the gap theorist thought (But I don't think the verse says what they want it to say). So the verse is Eze 28:13, “You were in Eden, the garden of God” [Eze 28:13].

This is not an “I saw you there” like some of the gap theorist have explained to me (imo). The statement of Eze 28:13 is a statement of privilege, like, “you were given the honor of being in, or stationed in, Eden, the garden of God”. It is a statement of high status.

Created in Exalted Position Near God.
Eze 28:12-19

1. You [were] the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
2. 13 You were in Eden, the garden of God
3. Every precious stone [was] your covering:
4. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared for you on the day you were created.
5. 14 "You [were] the anointed cherub who covers
6. You were on the holy mountain of God;
7. You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.

Eze 28:13 is one of a list of things that the author uses to illustrate how far Satan has fallen from grace. One of those within the list is that Satan was in Eden, the garden of God. It would seem to be clear that the author of Ezekiel is using Eden, the garden of God, as a moniker of status (just as all the surrounding verses are being used).

If Ezekiel is using "Eden, the garden of God" as a moniker of status (it seems clear he is if seen in context). Then that would mean that Satan's dominion given by God at creation included him being stationed on the mountain of God, walking back and forth in the midsts of the fiery stones and frequenting the garden of Eden.

The logic simply naturally follows from there, I think.

Armchair Apologist said:

Satan is referred to as a "serpent" as well as a "dragon." Satan is referred to as being these creatures but is every scriptural mention of dragons or serpents to be automatically construed as being the Devil?

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A study of ancient Hebrew imagery tells us that a dragon centers around the Hebrew word tannîn (meaning serpent, sea monster, or reptile). These creatures represented chaos and death in ancient Hebrew culture. Additionally, the serpent (nāḥāš) was used as ancient Hebrew imagery pointing to cosmic rebellion, entry of death, and ultimate moral ruin.

I'm not suggesting that just because this may be intended as imagery that the imagery being used isn't reflective of an actual person or being. Only that when the Genesis 3 text uses what was common Hebrew imagery for cosmic rebellion and death, a serpent, that the author may have never intended to suggest that Satan was a literal snake. Just something to consider.

Armchair Apologist said:

Snakes are reptillian creatures and our experience with them today are quite different from the one that Adam and Eve had encountered. The one obvious difference is that snakes today cannot speak nor do they exhibit cognizance or intelligence! We do not know how this serpent looked prior to God's act of judgment. We only know that this act of judgment resulted in the serpent slithering around on its belly and this is characteristic of every snake we find in nature.

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It seems that your logic leads to a conclusion that "all snakes" are Satan. So a question would be...

Which is it?
(1) Did Satan transform into a snake? (a shapeshifter if you will)
(2) Or are all snakes, Satan?

If (1) is the position one wants to hold then when Satan was cursed...not all snakes are cursed. For snakes did not deceive Eve but Satan. If (2) is true, then all snakes are Satan and thus all Satans were cursed. Further, if one holds (2) then one has to explain how all snakes are Satan. It just seems like (2) leads to a convoluted mess. Where the imagery option, used for actual entities in real historical events, seems more plausible considering how they, the Hebrews, used such imagery terms.


Keep seeking God's truth as if it were hidden treasure (Prov 2:1-6)

Ascetic X said:

It is strange how desperately you cling to the idea that thoughts are not deeds, so you will not be judged for having sinful thoughts. Thoughts are mental deeds and wicked thoughts are sins.

Jesus clearly stated that thinking about adultery is the same sin as doing adultery.

Matthew 5:28

But I say unto you, that whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.



You were given these verses about how wicked thoughts are sins, but you dismiss them.

Proverbs 15:26 The thoughts of the wicked are an abomination to the LORD: but the words of the pure are pleasant words.

Proverbs 24:9 The thought of foolishness is sin: and the scorner is an abomination to men.

Isaiah 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Matthew 9:4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?

James 2:4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?

Moreover, we need forgiveness for our evil thoughts and not just our evil deeds:

Acts 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

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Words are actions. How would men know you were a scrorner without words? How did Peter know in Acts 8 that Simon was guily of bad thoughts?

Here is what Jesus said about a tree. a metaphor for a man.

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

This truth was illustrated in your Acts 8 proof text. Peter looked at the produce from the tree of Simon.

Having said this I want you to know I do not want to die on this hill. Obviously you have strong convictions about your position and whatever differences we have on a non essential doctrine such as this I want to have grace with you and let you know that a disagreement of this sort will not cause us to break fellowship as Christian men who are both seeking truth. I am pretty sure that my pastor would take your position over mine and I love my pastor. He sees this differently from me and it is not an issue in any way.

Thank you for your thoughts on the subject.

Paleouss said:

It seems that your logic leads to a conclusion that "all snakes" are Satan. So a question would be...

Which is it?
(1) Did Satan transform into a snake? (a shapeshifter if you will)
(2) Or are all snakes, Satan?

If (1) is the position one wants to hold then when Satan was cursed...not all snakes are cursed. For snakes did not deceive Eve but Satan. If (2) is true, then all snakes are Satan and thus all Satan's were cursed. Further, if one holds (2) then one has to explain how all snakes are Satan. It just seems like (2) leads to a convoluted mess. Where the imagery option, used for actual entities in real historical events, seems more plausible considering how they, the Hebrews, used such imagery terms.


Keep seeking God's truth as if it were hidden treasure (Prov 2:1-6)

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That is absolutely NOT the conclusion of which I implied (meant to imply) or intended! What I intended to say is that Satan is portrayed in the imagery of a "snake" but not all snakes are Satan. As a matter of fact, no snake I encounter today should be regarded as being "Satan" (unless it starts talking, LOL). Every snake in nature is a reptile as are alligators, lizards, turtles, and so forth. They are vital to our ecosystem keeping the rat population down among other things so if I see one, I will leave it be and allow it to serve the purpose for which God has intended.

However, Isaiah 65 portrays the fully redeemed creation in the age to come but the poor serpent will continue to be a "dust eater" for all of eternity!

Greetings again brother.

Armchair Apologist said:

That is absolutely NOT the conclusion of which I implied (meant to imply) or intended! What I intended to say is that Satan is portrayed in the imagery of a "snake" but not all snakes are Satan.

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My apologies if I have offended you. Such was not my intent. My observation was that something you said struck me as leading logically to what I suggested. Not necessarily that you were forwarding it. Again my apologies for not being clear enough.

Armchair Apologist said:

As a matter of fact, no snake I encounter today should be regarded as being "Satan" (unless it starts talking, LOL). Every snake in nature is a reptile as are alligators, lizards, turtles, and so forth. They are vital to our ecosystem keeping the rat population down among other things so if I see one, I will leave it be and allow it to serve the purpose for which God has intended.

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Gotcha


Peace to you brother

Paleouss said:

Greetings again brother.

My apologies if I have offended you. Such was not my intent. My observation was that something you said struck me as leading logically to what I suggested. Not necessarily that you were forwarding it. Again my apologies for not being clear enough.

Gotcha


Peace to you brother

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Not offended at all! Sometimes we are misunderstood and have to clarify what we were trying to say in the first place. I am often interrupted mid-thought and do not always get back to what I originally intended to state.

I am taking our church through Genesis right now in our mid-week Bible study and we are in Chapter 3 as we speak so this discussion is timely.

Greetings

Armchair Apologist said:

I am taking our church through Genesis right now in our mid-week Bible study and we are in Chapter 3 as we speak so this discussion is timely.

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Awesome.

I think I'll try and explain more my thoughts on the three views of Genesis 3:1-14. So let's look at the option of the term "serpent" (nāḥāš). We both agree that this term represents Satan. But is this figurative language to describe him or is it literal? The options would seem to be...

(A) The "serpent" (nāḥāš) is ancient Hebrew imagery pointing to cosmic rebellion, entry of death, and ultimate moral ruin. All this is intended to further define to the Jewish reader who this person was and represents. It is a historical event with imagery.

(B). The "serpent" is Satan "disguised" as a literal "serpent" (a snake).

(C) The "serpent" is Satan and he is literally a serpent (a snake).

If we go with (B) then we admit that Satan is not actually a snake. He is disguising himself as one because Satan is actually an angel. We then wonder why Eve isn't shocked that a snake can talk. One might try and rationalize that all snakes talked before the flood. But what evidence do we have of that. Beings that talk are self-aware entities. But this objection is flimsy, but worth considering.

Still in the (B) theory where Satan is not an actual snake but only disguised as one. How are we to take this curse that "On your belly you shall go, And you shall eat dust All the days of your life and dust you shall eat all the days of your life" ? Satan isn't an actual snake in theory (B), he is only disguised as one. The curse sounds like what snakes do. They crawl on their bellies, eating dust.

So are we forced in (B) to change to imagery now. Or do we want to suggest that God turned Satan into a snake (forever)? Something like, you want to be a snake, a snake you shall be. But then we have to account for Isaiah 65 where he will be a "dust eater" for eternity. If Satan has been turned into a literal snake...is their dust in Hell? Now it would seem that we have to hold that Hell has dust. If we don't take this "eating dust" as literal then we have just admitted there is imagery in Genesis 3 (something we didn't want to do because we want to be literal about Satan being a snake).


Or is it more natural to just say that in ancient Hebrew culture crawling on the belly and eating dust is an ancient poetic idiom for total defeat, absolute subjugation, and deep disgrace (which it was).

Just my thoughts

Peace to you brother.