Mary’s devotion to Jesus

GentleGospeller said:

No, Roman Catholicism has the serious err, and is called "antichrist", vicarius christi, for it.

1Jn_2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn_2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn_4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2Jn_1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

They deny the sinful (fallen) flesh nature in Jesus' humanity, as per Rom. 8:3:

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Rom. 8:3; Gal. 4:4; Heb. 2:16-17; (not like angelic nature, unfallen celestial flesh; Jud. 1:7; 1 Cor. 15:39-40), but 2 Cor. 5:21.

This only refers to the human flesh nature of Jesus, not His spirit / mind / heart, for "flesh" and "spirit" are not the same thing, as per Jhn. 3.

Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Consider carefully the two things:

Luk_1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Gal_4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

All mankind since the fall of Adam, have come in the likeness of sinful (fallen) flesh:

Rom_1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

David's flesh and Jesus' flesh were both sinful (fallen) flesh:

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

See this chart:

Pages 88-89 - Godhead - The Eternal Heavenly Trio : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
or here - Flesh And Spirit of Jesus Christ Chart : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Having sinful flesh is not to be a sinner. To sin (1 Jhn. 3:4; Rom. 7:7,14; Jam. 2:8-13) is to be a sinner. Sin is not simply existing / being in sinful (fallen) flesh.

As stated before, Jesus was without sin (no question), but Jesus' human nature, his human flesh, could not be unfallen (like the angelic hosts in their unfallen celestial flesh) and still be subject to death, but came "in the likeness of sinful (fallen) flesh" (Rom. 8:3).

Jesus redeemed fallen mankind, by being victorious over the fallen nature. He had sinful (fallen) flesh and chose not to sin, even unto death, the death of the Cross.

Joh_16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Rev_3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

The words are "even as" (G5613). Jesus is the "example" (1 Pet. 2:21) not just the "propitiation" for mankind. Jesus, demonstrating in the sinful (fallen) flesh that it is possible to be an overcomer, as He was, by the Holy Ghost. Jesus was born of the Holy Ghost in sinful (fallen) flesh, and a Christian is also born of the Holy Ghost, by being born again from above, and yet lives in the same sinful (fallen) flesh, and so can have the same victory in the here and now as Jesus did then, and one does not need to wait until the flesh is changed at the second coming. The latter reasoning grants no victory in the here and now, and places sin as victorious until Jesus returns, but that is not what Jesus promised!

Yes, Jesus took on "human nature", but there are two kinds of such as mentioned in scripture that take place before translation / glorification:
1. the sinless (unfallen) flesh of Adam the first
2. the sinful (fallen) flesh of Adam the first after he had sinned

So, which option of "human nature" does the Bible say Jesus took?

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

1Pe_4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

1Pe_3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

They follow the Lamb withersoever He goeth (Rev. 14:4).

You say, "He is God and God does not have a sinful nature.", yet He is also man (human, mankind), and in that second nature taken upon Himself, He took sinful (fallen) flesh:

1Ti_3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Rom_9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Heb_2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Col_1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

So, why focus only on the God part and not the second part, the sinful (fallen) flesh human nature part?

Another reason that Roman Catholicism needs to reject this, is because of their "Transubstantiation" doctrine, and they do not want to believe they eat sinful (fallen) flesh.

Click to expand...

Cathode said:

Away with your blasphemy. Christ did not have a sinful nature.

Christ had human nature not a sinful nature.

You need to repent of this, seriously.

Click to expand...

Cathode said:

This thread is about Mary’s devotion to Jesus, I don’t want it to be befouled by blasphemy of Christ.

Click to expand...

GentleGospeller said:

But Roman Catholic Dogmas of "Original Sin", and "Immaculate Conception (of Mary by 'Anne')" leads to the discussion. So, in effect, you brought it up by bringing up the Roman 'Mary'.

Click to expand...

Cathode said:

I would love you guys on my legal team if I was to get into trouble with the law, but in this situation you can’t change facts of the case.

Intercessors are mediators and mediators are intercessors.

Christs one mediation and our mediation are different, but we are mediators.

Click to expand...

Cathode said:

Mary is unique however, The Incarnation only took place in Her and of Her Immaculate flesh.

No one magnified the Lord like Mary did.

Mary isn’t deceased, she is alive body and soul in Heaven.

Click to expand...

JonC said:

Yes, and if you adore your cat you are a cat worshipper.

This is what Paul said -

First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. his is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time. (RSVCE [Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition]).

Now, this should not be hard.

1. God, through Paul, said "there is one mediator between God and men".

So does this mean that there is more than one mediator between God and man or that there are many mediators between God and man? No.

2. God, through Paul, said in this same passage that we are to make intercessions for people. Did Paul say we are to be mediatirs between men and God? No.

3. Why did Paul use one word for intercession and a different word for mediation? Because he was not talking about the same thing (both words are in the same passage).

Click to expand...

Cathode said:

You are deceived, kindly remove yourself from this thread.

Click to expand...

• [1.] Is the woman still pregnant (with child) in Rev. 12:1-2,5 KJB? Is Mary pregnant right now?
• [2.] Is the “great red Dragon” also “in heaven” [right now] ready to devour the ‘man child’ as soon as He is born in Rev. 12:3-5 KJB, and if so, is the devil in Heaven right now with this ‘Mary’ then?
• [3.] Does the Bible (KJB) anywhere say that ‘Mary’, whether dead or alive, was ‘assumed’ bodily into Heaven? [Thomas Aquinas says, 'Nope.']
• [4.] Is the context or Rev. 12:1-2 in pre-AD (Anno Domini) times, before the birth of the Messiah?
• [5.] Is the context of Rev. 11:15-19 in post BC (Before Christ) times, even at the end of time for this world, during the 7th trumpet (Rev. 11:15 KJB), wherein the 7 last plagues are mentioned (Rev. 11:18 KJB, ‘thy wrath is come’)?

• “… [David] is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.” (Act. 2:29);
• “For David is not ascended into the heavens …” (Act. 2:34);
• “… fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:” (Act. 13:36);
• “… they that gladly received his word …” (Act. 2:41);
• “And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine …” (Act. 2:42)

Cathode said:

You are deceived, kindly remove yourself from this thread.

Click to expand...

Does Catholicism teach to worship Mary? Should it?​

• "... the Most August Virgin Mary ... this Divine Mother ... Yet our manner of praying to the Blessed Virgin has something in common with our worship of God, so that the Church even addresses to her the words with which we pray to God: "Have mercy on sinners." ... the heavenly choirs, "above whom the Holy Mother of God is exalted." ...” - Augustissimae Virginis Mariae (September 12, 1897) & On the Confraternity of the Holy Rosary - Papal Encyclicals

• “... paid honor to her [Mary] with lavish generosity; temples and basilicas built to her glory with regal splendor ...” - On the Rosary
• Adiutricem (September 5, 1895)

• “... Go to her, you who are crushed by material misery, defenseless against the hardships of life and the indifference of men. Go to her, you who are assailed by sorrows and moral trials. Go to her, beloved invalids and infirm, you who are sincerely welcomed and honored at Lourdes as the suffering members of our Lord. Go to her and receive peace of heart, strength for your daily duties, joy for the sacrifice you offer. ... Amid dangers, difficulties, and doubts, think of Mary, invoke Mary’s aid. ... If you follow her, you will not stray; if you entreat her, you will not lose hope; if you reflect upon her, you will not err; if she supports you, you will not fall; if she protects you, you will not fear; if she leads you, you will not grow weary; if she is propitious, you will reach your goal. ...” Second Homily on the Missus est: PL CLXXXIII, 70-71.” ...” - CATHOLIC LIBRARY: Le Pelerinage de Lourdes (1957)
• Le Pelerinage De Lourdes - Papal Encyclicals
• Le Pèlerinage de Lourdes (July 2, 1957)

• “969 “This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. ... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.”510” - Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText

• “... 8. The power thus put into her hands is all but unlimited. How unerringly right, then, are Christian souls when they turn to Mary for help as though impelled by an instinct of nature, confidently sharing with her their future hopes and past achievements, their sorrows and joys, commending themselves like children to the care of a bountiful mother. How rightly, too, has every nation and every liturgy without exception acclaimed her great renown, which has grown greater with the voice of each succeeding century. Among her many other titles we find her hailed as “our Lady, our Mediatrix,”[3] “the Reparatrix of the whole world,”[4] “the Dispenser of all heavenly gifts.”[5] ...” - On the Rosary
• Adiutricem (September 5, 1895)

• “... who is placed on the highest summit of power and glory in Heaven ...” - Supremi Apostolatus Officio - Papal Encyclicals

• “... Before reciting the Angelus, the Pope concluded his reflection by pointing out that the Gospel teaching has promoted an “active mentality” among Christian populations, even in the historical and social spheres, and yet “the central message regards the spirit of responsibility with which the Kingdom of God is to be accepted: responsibility toward God and toward humanity.” The perfect model of this attitude is found in the heart of the Virgin Mary, “who, receiving the most precious of gifts, Jesus himself, offered him to the world with great love. ...” - VATICAN - Pope at the Angelus: “Indeed, what Christ gives us is multiplied when we give it away! It is a treasure that is made to be spent, invested, shared with all, as the Apostle Paul, that great administrator of Jesus' talents, has taught us;” the presence of the cloistered religious communities in the Church and the world “is indispensable.”

• “... as though they were listening to the very voice of the Blessed Mother explaining the mysteries and conversing with them at length ...” - Magnae Dei Matris - Papal Encyclicals

• 2 Corinthians 11:4 KJB - And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel [messenger] of light.

• [1.] Latria, koine Greek [G2999], "λατρεία", "latreia", & [G3000] "λατρεύω", "latreuw" (Catholicism teaches, reserved to God alone)
• [2.] Hyper-Dulia [does not exist in scripture] (Catholicism teaches, reserved for Mary)
• [3.] Dulia, koine Greek [G1398], "δουλεύω', "douleuw" (Catholicism teaches, reserved for saints, kings, &c.)

Cathode said:

You are deceived, kindly remove yourself from this thread.

Click to expand...

• [G2999] "λατρεία", "latreia": Jhn. 16:2; Rom. 9:4; Heb. 9:1,6
• [G3000] "λατρεύω", "latreuw": Mat. 4:10; Luk. 1:74, 2:37, 4:8; Act. 7:7,42, 24:14, 26:7, 27:23; Rom. 1:9,25; Php. 3:3; 2 Tim. 1:3; Heb. 8:5, 9:9,14, 10:2, 12:28, 13:10; Rev. 7:15, 22:3
• [G1398] "δουλεύω', "douleuw": Mat. 6:24; Luk. 15:29, 16:13; Jhn. 8:33; Act. 7:7, 20:19; Rom. 7:6,25, 9:12, 12:11, 14:18, 16:18; Gal. 4:8,9,25, 5:13; Eph. 6:7; Php. 2:22; Col. 3:24; 1 Thes. 1:9; 1 Tim. 6:2; Tit. 3:3

• [G2999] "λατρεία", "latreia": https://lexicon.katabiblon.com/index.php?lemma=λατρεία
• [G3000] "λατρεύω", "latreuw": https://lexicon.katabiblon.com/index.php?lemma=λατρεύω
• [G1398] "δουλεύω', "douleuw": https://lexicon.katabiblon.com/index.php?lemma=δουλεύω

• Act 7:42 Then God turned, and gave them up to worshipthe host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness?
  • Act 7:42 εστρεψεν δε ο θεος και παρεδωκεν αυτους λατρευειν τη στρατια του ουρανου καθως γεγραπται εν βιβλω των προφητων μη σφαγια και θυσιας προσηνεγκατε μοι ετη τεσσαρακοντα εν τη ερημω οικος ισραηλ

• Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and servedthe creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
  • Rom 1:25 οιτινες μετηλλαξαν την αληθειαν του θεου εν τω ψευδει και εσεβασθησαν και ελατρευσαν τη κτισει παρα τον κτισαντα ος εστιν ευλογητος εις τους αιωνας αμην

JonC said:

Yes, and if you adore your cat you are a cat worshipper.

This is what Paul said -

First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. his is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time. (RSVCE [Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition]).

Now, this should not be hard.

1. God, through Paul, said "there is one mediator between God and men".

So does this mean that there is more than one mediator between God and man or that there are many mediators between God and man? No.

2. God, through Paul, said in this same passage that we are to make intercessions for people. Did Paul say we are to be mediatirs between men and God? No.

3. Why did Paul use one word for intercession and a different word for mediation? Because he was not talking about the same thing (both words are in the same passage).

Click to expand...

Cathode said:

In context, which you didn’t highlight.

For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all

It was entirely in context of Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross as ransom for all mankind.
That is the context of the One Mediator, there was and only could be One Mediator who gave himself as ransom for all on the Cross, Jesus.

So this doesn’t mean you can’t ask the living on earth or heaven to pray for you, being a secondary mediators in prayer.

Scripture does not prohibit asking the saints of heaven or earth to pray for us.

You are following human prohibitions not biblical ones.

Rather scripture tells us to always persist in prayer for all of the saints with all kinds of prayers and petitions.
This principle being so, I don’t see any reason the saints in heaven don’t persist bringing our prayers to God.

Click to expand...

Cathode said:

In context, which you didn’t highlight.

For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all

It was entirely in context of Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross as ransom for all mankind.
That is the context of the One Mediator, there was and only could be One Mediator who gave himself as ransom for all on the Cross, Jesus.

So this doesn’t mean you can’t ask the living on earth or heaven to pray for you, being a secondary mediators in prayer.

Scripture does not prohibit asking the saints of heaven or earth to pray for us.

You are following human prohibitions not biblical ones.

Rather scripture tells us to always persist in prayer for all of the saints with all kinds of prayers and petitions.
This principle being so, I don’t see any reason the saints in heaven don’t persist bringing our prayers to God.

Click to expand...

Mike B said:

Why would I ask Mary (or any other deceased individual) to go before God and plead my case
when, because of the finished work of Jesus, I can approach the throne of God myself, and
plead my case directly before God?

Reminds me of high school...too cowardly to ask on my own, so "Bill, would you go ask Mary Jo
if she likes me?" A question that Bill would probably respond to with.."your legs ain't broke, go
ask her yourself!"

By asking Bill to do it for me....that is mediation.

I pray for others, both the lost and brothers and sisters in Christ, because I love them and
hope that God will bless them, or send the Holy Spirit to convict them of their sins and their
need for salvation, and bring them to accept the redemption that is in Jesus Christ.

That is intercession. I am praying for them because they are lost, or sick or facing troubled times.
No one asked me to do this on their behalf.

As for the constant, repetitive prayers of the rosary, or stations of the cross, or penance ("say
10 hail Mary's and 10 our Fathers"), I can only imagine God saying "I heard you the first time!"

Lighting a candle and then kneeling and praying to Mary, before a statue of Mary, is idolatry
in my opinion, and that's a belief I came to in the 4th grade while attending a Catholic school.

Our Father in Heaven is not complicated, but we humans have sure made Him out to be.

Click to expand...

Mike B said:

Why would I ask Mary (or any other deceased individual) to go before God and plead my case
when, because of the finished work of Jesus, I can approach the throne of God myself, and
plead my case directly before God?

Click to expand...

Mike B said:

as God did not intend for His
word to be complicated and confusing.

Click to expand...

Anthony Pritchard said:

Scripture never presents saints in heaven as “bringing” prayers to God, as if God needed human help in receiving and hearing prayers. God hears prayer directly (Ps 65:2), knows our needs before we ask (Matt 6:8), and grants access through Christ alone (1 Tim 2:5; Eph 2:18). The apostles never prayed to departed believers or taught the practice. You are not arguing from Scripture, but from Catholic dogma that requires additional mediators. The biblical pattern is prayer to the Father, through the Son, by the Spirit, not through saints.

Click to expand...

Cathode said:

No, Catholics believe there is only One Mediator for the Redemption of mankind, Jesus Christ, by His work on the Cross.

Click to expand...