I Will Build My Church 2

And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him. Matthew 10:1-4 Luke 6


Matthew 16:18 I οἰκοδομήσω vi Fut Act 1 Sg

I will do something, I have already done.

JD731 said:

Actually, I think it does more than one time.

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JD, I’m going to stay strictly on the point I made. I said Scripture never states that the church began at the resurrection. You replied, “Actually, I think it does more than one time.” If that is the case, then please show the verse.

I am not sure why the original thread was unceremoniously closed without comment.

I have shown verses but you just have disagreed with the context so I suppose that is why you dismissed them while claiming I am out of context., I believe the church of Jesus Christ begins with a birth, a new birth, and you seem to teach that the church began with a meeting, an event. While I believe you are correct that a meeting to choose apostles can be A church, in your meaning of assembly, it is not THE church of Jesus Christ. That church is described as the` body of people who are merged together by their faith and belief that Jesus Christ, the son of God, died for our sins, was buried, and rose again from the dead. That Jesus, the head of the body, God, becoming one of us, a man and sinless, and dying as a man, in order to impart his own righteousness to all of us, according to the scriptures. I have quoted Co 1:18 and other verses that actually says this and I don't think you have quoted any verses for your position but you have referenced them, the most important seeming to be Luke 6 when Jesus chose and commissioned the 12 apostles from among his faithful disciples.

As a matter of considering a biblical position before I give you the verses you requested, I would like for you to consider some things that Jesus said to his disciples and to this generation of Jews to whom he came in the fulness of the time. He indicated with his speech to the rulers in this generation that they were "builders." I note that and I get that and have studied previous generations of Jews and they are not called builders like these men are. He also called them servants. They were not called sons. A servant has a different relationship than a son.

So, if they were builders and in the fullness of the time, what did God desire they build? I submit to you that it was his church, the temple of the Spirit, that this generation was commissioned to build. After they solidified their rejection of him by putting him to death, the apostles began building the church by testifying of who Jesus was and as you have quoted yourself in Acts 4:11 pointing to the stone the builders had rejected and had been put where a cornerstone of a new building is located, in the ground. The apostles are next up and for 7 years and for 7 chapters testified to the person and work of Jesus Christ to no one but the Jews, all the time adding living stones to the building but not in large numbers.

The building of the church was not an after thought of God, it was always his intention and an eternal purpose of God. Eventually the lively stones to complete the house would come from a different quarry because of the rejection and their influence on the Jews but in his wisdom and providence all things are accomplished in the exact timing as the heavenly Father has ordained in spite of the efforts by devils and corrupt men to hinder him.

You are going to need to see the church is the eternal purpose of God and on schedule so you will believe it.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times (plural) he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. (the Jews)

This is explaining the history of Acts and the key to understanding this is "in Christ." Eph 1:1-12 is dealing with Jews and in v 13 the gentiles were added. The history in the Acts confirms this.

Back for a moment to the builders. As the tension and envy of the builders increased as crunch time drew near and after they had committed the unpardonable sin, which is a corporate sin, and generational, Jesus began to say to his disciples these following words.

Matthew 9:38
Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.
Luke 10:2
Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest

The harvest time is the end of the season. Check all the parables that Jesus gave during these days and you will find they are all concerned with the end of someting. You might even notice it was a marriage "supper" that was finally prepared and the guests were summoned and would not come. God wanted his house to be filled. No wonder the harvest of that crop was not yet gathered and in Mt 13, he sent a sower out to sow seed in a new field for another and different crop.

One more thing here. All those in the church are "sons" of God, no exception, They are in it by birth, the new birth. On crucifixion eve Jesus addressed his apostles and disciples and said this.


John 15:13 - 15
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

After the resurrection they will be sons by receiving the Spirit and the hidden things of God from the foundation of the world will begin to be revealed to them to teach to others in this age.

1 Corinthians 3:9
For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

I suggest Hebrews 3 is a good supporting chapter to read for this study. Hebrews likewise is about the last days of the age and their failed responsibility. He 1:1-2.

I am sorry I did not get to posting my verses. I will get to them in my next comments. Thank you for your interest in this conversation about when the church was birthed and I have considered your thoughts.

JD731 said:

I have shown verses but you just have disagreed with the context so I suppose that is why you dismissed them

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JD, I appreciate the overview, but I’m staying on the single point I raised. You said, “Scripture states the church began at the resurrection.” I’m simply asking for the verse that says that. Not an inference, not a chain of reasoning, not a theological system, the verse. If Scripture states it, please cite it. If Scripture does not state it, then it is not a biblical claim.

Everything you’ve written here is your interpretation of parables, builders, harvests, dispensations, and Acts chronology. None of that answers the simple question. I’m not asking for a theology of the church. I’m asking for the specific text where Scripture says, in words, that the church began at the resurrection.

So I’ll restate the question plainly: what verse says the church began at the resurrection?

JD731 said:

I believe the church of Jesus Christ begins with a birth, a new birth, and you seem to teach that the church began with a meeting, an event.

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JD, it appears that you shifting categories here. I’m staying on the single point I raised. You said Scripture states that the church began at the resurrection. I asked for the verse that says that. Your statement here, “I believe the church begins with a new birth”, is your interpretation, not the text. It does not answer the question.

I’m not asking what you believe the church is, or how you define it, or how you understand new birth. I’m asking for the specific verse where Scripture says, in words, that the church began at the resurrection. If Scripture states it, please cite it. If Scripture does not state it, then it is not a biblical claim.

So I’ll restate the question plainly: what verse(s) says, or teaches, that the church began at the resurrection?

percho said:

Matthew 16:18 I οἰκοδομήσω vi Fut Act 1 Sg

I will do something, I have already done.

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"I have Done and I Am Continuing to, and Will Continue to Build and Edify, My particular Divine local church Organization, that I Originally Formed out of you that I name in:"

percho said:

Matthew 10:1-4; Luke 6

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who were Saved and then Baptized by the Authority of God by a man named John the Baptist, who God Sent to baptize as The Council of God and to Fulfill all Rightousness, as Jesus said when He was to be baptized by John the Baptist.

Those 12 particular Scripturally baptized disciples of Jesus were THE MATERIAL BY WHICH JESUS HAD BEGUN TO "BUILD" HIS KIND OF CHURCH/ EKKLESIA, using an Architectural metaphor.

God is the One through His Holy Spirit Who Places specific, particular people, as God Says in I Corinthians 12: 27; "Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular", then in I Corinthians 12:28; God Tells us who it was that were first Placed by Him in His local church assembly Organization/ Organism; "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles,...", those you listed from;

percho said:

Matthew 10:1-4 Luke 6.

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To your point of;

percho said:

I will do something, I have already done.

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we know that Jesus is not here announcing anything remotely related to "A KINGDOM/ Strong’s Greek 932, βασιλεία" which "speaks primarily of “kingdom” in the sense of active rule or reign...", which Jesus Does over all of His children in His Kingdom, as their King, and this Lordship was Present in the Old Testament. Strong's Greek: 932. βασιλεία (basileia) -- Kingdom

"Frequent in the N. T. in reference to the Reign of the Messiah are the following phrases: ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ Θεοῦ (דֶאֱלָהָא מַלְכוּתָא, Targ. Isaiah 40:9; Micah 4:7), properly, the kingdom over which God rules;

"ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ Χριστοῦ (דִמְשִׁיחָא מַלְכוּת, Targ. Jonath. ad Isaiah 53:10), the kingdom of the Messiah, which will be founded by God through the Messiah and over which the Messiah will preside as God's vicegerent;

"ἡ βασιλεία τῶν οὐρανῶν, only in Matthew, but very frequently (some 33 times), the kingdom of heaven, i. e. the kingdom which is of heavenly or divine origin and nature (in rabbinical writings שָׁמַיִם מַלְכוּת is the rule of God, the theocracy viewed universally, not the Messianic kingdom);

"sometimes simply ἡ βασιλεία: Matthew 4:23, etc.; James 2:5;

"once ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ Δαυίδ, because it was supposed the Messiah would be one of David's descendants and a king very like David, Mark 11:10;

"once also ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ Χριστοῦ καί Θεοῦ, Ephesians 5:5." Strong's Greek: 932. βασιλεία (basileia) -- Kingdom

JESUS WAS ABSOLUTELY REFERRING TO A LOCAL ORGANIZED CHURCH BODY WHO ASSEMBLED TO WORSHIP HIM WHICH IS NOTHING AT ALL LIKE HIS KINGDOM OF ALL HIS SAVED CHILDREN, WHICH HE HAD ALREADY RULED OVER FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS, FOR NTHER REASON THAN HE STATED HE WAS BUILDING HIS KIND OF LOCAL CHURCH BODY, WHICH IS WHERE HE HAS AND IS INSTRUCTING TO BE THE KIND OF PLACE HE IS TO BE SERVED AND RECEIVE WORSHIP, IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH.

"UNTO GOD BE GLORY IN THE CHURCH" IS NOT IN ANY WAY SPEAKING OF SOMETHING THAT PROMOTES NOTHING BUT REBELLIOUS, IRRESPONSIBLE, SPIRITUAL ADULTARY, IN AN ILLUSION OF A WORTHLESS, SENSELESS, "INVISIBLE" NOTHING THAT IS USED BY SATAN TO DISTRACT FROM GOD'S CHILDREN'S PROPER AND ACCEPTABLE WORSHIP THE WAY GOD SAYS TO, NO DIFFERENT THAN HE DID IN HIS VERY STRICT INSTRUCTIONS FOR THOSE FAITHFUL FOLLOWERS WHO ASSEMBLED TO WORSHIP HIM STARTING WITH ADAM AND EVE.

Alan Dale Gross said:

"I have Done and I Am Continuing to, and Will Continue to Build and Edify, My particular Divine local church Organization, that I Originally Formed out of you that I name in:"

who were Saved and then Baptized by the Authority of God by a man named John the Baptist, who God Sent to baptize as The Council of God and to Fulfill all Rightousness, as Jesus said when He was to be baptized by John the Baptist.

Those 12 particular Scripturally baptized disciples of Jesus were THE MATERIAL BY WHICH JESUS HAD BEGUN TO "BUILD" HIS KIND OF CHURCH/ EKKLESIA, using an Architectural metaphor.

God is the One through His Holy Spirit Who Places specific, particular people, as God Says in I Corinthians 12: 27; "Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular", then in I Corinthians 12:28; God Tells us who it was that were first Placed by Him in His local church assembly Organization/ Organism; "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles,...", those you listed from;





To your point of;

we know that Jesus is not here announcing anything remotely related to "A KINGDOM/ Strong’s Greek 932, βασιλεία" which "speaks primarily of “kingdom” in the sense of active rule or reign...", which Jesus Does over all of His children in His Kingdom, as their King, and this Lordship was Present in the Old Testament. Strong's Greek: 932. βασιλεία (basileia) -- Kingdom

"Frequent in the N. T. in reference to the Reign of the Messiah are the following phrases: ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ Θεοῦ (דֶאֱלָהָא מַלְכוּתָא, Targ. Isaiah 40:9; Micah 4:7), properly, the kingdom over which God rules;

"ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ Χριστοῦ (דִמְשִׁיחָא מַלְכוּת, Targ. Jonath. ad Isaiah 53:10), the kingdom of the Messiah, which will be founded by God through the Messiah and over which the Messiah will preside as God's vicegerent;

"ἡ βασιλεία τῶν οὐρανῶν, only in Matthew, but very frequently (some 33 times), the kingdom of heaven, i. e. the kingdom which is of heavenly or divine origin and nature (in rabbinical writings שָׁמַיִם מַלְכוּת is the rule of God, the theocracy viewed universally, not the Messianic kingdom);

"sometimes simply ἡ βασιλεία: Matthew 4:23, etc.; James 2:5;

"once ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ Δαυίδ, because it was supposed the Messiah would be one of David's descendants and a king very like David, Mark 11:10;

"once also ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ Χριστοῦ καί Θεοῦ, Ephesians 5:5." Strong's Greek: 932. βασιλεία (basileia) -- Kingdom

JESUS WAS ABSOLUTELY REFERRING TO A LOCAL ORGANIZED CHURCH BODY WHO ASSEMBLED TO WORSHIP HIM WHICH IS NOTHING AT ALL LIKE HIS KINGDOM OF ALL HIS SAVED CHILDREN, WHICH HE HAD ALREADY RULED OVER FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS, FOR NTHER REASON THAN HE STATED HE WAS BUILDING HIS KIND OF LOCAL CHURCH BODY, WHICH IS WHERE HE HAS AND IS INSTRUCTING TO BE THE KIND OF PLACE HE IS TO BE SERVED AND RECEIVE WORSHIP, IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH.

"UNTO GOD BE GLORY IN THE CHURCH" IS NOT IN ANY WAY SPEAKING OF SOMETHING THAT PROMOTES NOTHING BUT REBELLIOUS, IRRESPONSIBLE, SPIRITUAL ADULTARY, IN AN ILLUSION OF A WORTHLESS, SENSELESS, "INVISIBLE" NOTHING THAT IS USED BY SATAN TO DISTRACT FROM GOD'S CHILDREN'S PROPER AND ACCEPTABLE WORSHIP THE WAY GOD SAYS TO, NO DIFFERENT THAN HE DID IN HIS VERY STRICT INSTRUCTIONS FOR THOSE FAITHFUL FOLLOWERS WHO ASSEMBLED TO WORSHIP HIM STARTING WITH ADAM AND EVE.

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Good old book on this

360watt said:

Good old book on this

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IT DOES LOOK LIKE A GREAT ONE, AS I SKIMMED (maybe the caps lock 'on' was O.K. there...!) through this .pdf
Thank you, this thing is PACKED.
My Church

Anthony Pritchard said:

JD, I appreciate the overview, but I’m staying on the single point I raised. You said, “Scripture states the church began at the resurrection.” I’m simply asking for the verse that says that. Not an inference, not a chain of reasoning, not a theological system, the verse. If Scripture states it, please cite it. If Scripture does not state it, then it is not a biblical claim.

Everything you’ve written here is your interpretation of parables, builders, harvests, dispensations, and Acts chronology. None of that answers the simple question. I’m not asking for a theology of the church. I’m asking for the specific text where Scripture says, in words, that the church began at the resurrection.

So I’ll restate the question plainly: what verse says the church began at the resurrection?

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Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

This is not a church, it is THE church of Jesus Christ and the only way to enter in is through Jesus Christ. and this context tells us that as we continue reading.

20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. (this includes the apostles)


22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

I am not sure how we can reason around this plain truth.

Consider this:
3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

Col 1 says he is the firstborn from the dead, which means he received the spiritual birth and glorification of his physical body at the resurrection.

He is the firstborn of the new family;
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son (trinitarian), that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Colossians 1:15
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

He 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Read the above with discernment. The initial recipients of this letter are the Hebrews in the apostolic era. The apostles of Jesus are in this context having been born again after the resurrection of Jesus Christ. See John 20:19-23 which I have already referenced.

Anthony, I am presenting what I believe is the truth and am reasoning with you and appealing to logic and faith in what I read while I am trying to obey the rule of rightly dividing the word of truth. I do not want this to be an argument that I am trying to win. I do not want to be a student of the scriptures who will not reason when the argument corrects me, but your argument for the beginning of the church does not do that. The apostles in Lk 6 were just men but they had not yet been made perfect because their sins was not washed away by the blood of Christ until he had died and rose again.

Hebrews 9:22
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

There could not have been the church of Jesus Christ until he died, was buried and rose again and the verse you are looking for to tell you that is Col 1:18, and there are others.

JD731 said:

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

This is not a church, it is THE church of Jesus Christ and the only way to enter in is through Jesus Christ. and this context tells us that as we continue reading.

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JD, everything you wrote after Colossians 1:18 depends on a single assumption that is not in the text. You are treating Colossians 1:18 as if Paul were describing a universal, unassembled church. He is not. Paul is writing to the saints and faithful brethren at Colossae (Col 1:2). The “body” and “church” language in the letter refers to that assembly, not to a universal institution.

Paul does this consistently. In 1 Corinthians 12:27 he says, “Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.” He is speaking to the church at Corinth. In Romans 12:5 he says, “So we, being many, are one body in Christ.” He is speaking to the believers at Rome. In Ephesians 1:22 to 23 he says the church at Ephesus is “his body.” In every case Paul applies “body” language to the local congregation he is addressing.

You have taken Paul’s local usage and turned it into a universal definition, then used that definition to claim the church began at the resurrection. The text does not say that. You are importing it.

Colossians 1:18 says Christ is the head of the body and the firstborn from the dead so that He might have preeminence. “Firstborn from the dead” is a title of rank. Paul explains it with the purpose clause, “that in all things he might have the preeminence.” It is not a timestamp for the beginning of the church. You are reading chronology into a supremacy statement.

Because you treat Colossians 1:18 as a definition of a universal church, everything else you wrote depends on that first mistake. Your entire argument is built on the assumption that “the church” in Colossians 1:18 is a universal entity that began at the resurrection. The text does not say that. Once the first assumption is wrong, everything built on it collapses.

Christ constituted His assembly in Luke 6:13 when He called, gathered, and named the apostles. Nothing in Colossians 1:18 contradicts that. Nothing in Colossians 1:18 gives a new beginning point. Nothing in Colossians 1:18 ties the origin of the church to the resurrection.

So the original question remains. Where does Scripture state that the church began at the resurrection? Not infer it. Not imply it. Not build a chain of reasoning. State it.

Colossians 1:18 does not.

הָיְתָה Ps 118:22
ἐγενήθη Matt 21:42
γενόμενος Acts 4:11

Why is this word there? Does it mean to become, in specific time?

In Matt the rejected stone was the son killed a verse or two before V 42 It became at a specific moment in time.
In Acts 4 the rejected stone had been crucified, killed. It became at a specific moment in time. Until that specific moment it was just a rejected stone.

Answer this.

who in the days of his flesh both prayers and supplications unto Him who was able to save him from death -- with strong crying and tears -- having offered up, and having been heard in respect to that which he feared, through being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered -- the obedience, Heb 5:7,8

Does the above state that on 14th of Nissan the Rock Jesus of Nazareth became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross?
Did he become the cause of eternal salvation on the 15 Nissan? What about the 16 Nissan?

V 9 and having been made perfect, he did become to all those obeying him a cause of salvation age-during,

Did that take place in time specific?

Matthew 18:15-17 KJV
Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. [16] But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. [17] And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

This is before the resurrection, right?

360watt said:

Matthew 18:15-17 KJV
Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. [16] But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. [17] And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

This is before the resurrection, right?

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Yes, it is before the resurrection. And that is exactly the point. Matthew 18 is instruction given before Christ formally called, gathered, and named His ekklēsia in Luke 6:13. Matthew 16:18 is future tense, “I will build My church.” Luke 6:13 is the moment He constituted that assembly.

percho said:

הָיְתָה Ps 118:22
ἐγενήθη Matt 21:42
γενόμενος Acts 4:11

Why is this word there? Does it mean to become, in specific time?

In Matt the rejected stone was the son killed a verse or two before V 42 It became at a specific moment in time.
In Acts 4 the rejected stone had been crucified, killed. It became at a specific moment in time. Until that specific moment it was just a rejected stone.

Answer this.

who in the days of his flesh both prayers and supplications unto Him who was able to save him from death -- with strong crying and tears -- having offered up, and having been heard in respect to that which he feared, through being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered -- the obedience, Heb 5:7,8

Does the above state that on 14th of Nissan the Rock Jesus of Nazareth became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross?
Did he become the cause of eternal salvation on the 15 Nissan? What about the 16 Nissan?

V 9 and having been made perfect, he did become to all those obeying him a cause of salvation age-during,

Did that take place in time specific?

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The verbs in Psalm 118, Matthew 21, and Acts 4 do not mean Christ only began to be the cornerstone at a specific moment. They mark the public manifestation of His identity, not the origin of it. Jesus applies Psalm 118:22 to Himself during His earthly ministry, before His death, which shows He was already the rejected stone and already the cornerstone. Acts 4 is the vindication of that identity, not its beginning. Hebrews 5 speaks of Christ’s experiential obedience as High Priest, not the origin of His messianic role. The cornerstone is the Messiah in prophecy, in His ministry, and in His exaltation, the verbs do not change that sequence.

Acts 2 Pentecost is a church empowered, not the beginning of the NT church.

Alan Dale Gross said:

"I have Done and I Am Continuing to, and Will Continue to Build and Edify, My particular Divine local church Organization, that I Originally Formed out of you that I name in:"

who were Saved and then Baptized by the Authority of God by a man named John the Baptist, who God Sent to baptize as The Council of God and to Fulfill all Rightousness, as Jesus said when He was to be baptized by John the Baptist.

Those 12 particular Scripturally baptized disciples of Jesus were THE MATERIAL BY WHICH JESUS HAD BEGUN TO "BUILD" HIS KIND OF CHURCH/ EKKLESIA, using an Architectural metaphor.

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“Saved and then Baptized”? “Scripturally baptized”? There is only one instance in he New Testament of someone being saved and then Baptized: Acts 10:44-48.

44. While Peter was still speaking, the Holy Spirit fell upon all who heard the word.
45. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astounded that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles,
46. for they heard them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter said,
47. "Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
48. So he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they invited him to stay for several days.

The typical order in the New Testament is precisely the revere, baptized and the saved:

Acts 10:38. Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Mark 16:16. The one who believes and is baptized will be saved; but the one who does not believe will be condemned.

Acts 22:16. And now why do you delay? Get up, be baptized, and have your sins washed away, calling on his name.'

Titus 3:4. But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,
5. he saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy, through the water {Gk [washing]} of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 5:25. Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,
26. in order to make her holy by cleansing her with the washing of water by the word,
27. so as to present the church to himself in splendor, without a spot or wrinkle or anything of the kind—yes, so that she may be holy and without blemish.

Colossians 2:11. In him also you were circumcised with a spiritual circumcision, by putting off the body of the flesh in the circumcision of Christ;
12. when you were buried with him in baptism, you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

1 Peter 321. Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22. who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him. (NASB 1995)

1 Peter 3:21. And baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you—not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22. who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers made subject to him. NRSV)

Correctly understanding the syntax is not only essential but critical for correctly understanding these two verses in 1 Peter. In verse 21, we have one main clause, “baptism now saves you,” and four subordinate clauses (also called a dependent clauses):

1. which this prefigured
2. not as a removal of dirt from the body
3. but as an appeal to God for a good conscience
4. through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Subordinate clause #2 tells us what baptism is not
Subordinate clause #3 tells us what baptism is
The main clause tells us what baptism does—it saves the recipient of baptism!
Subordinate clause #2 CANNOT nullify the main clause because it is dependent upon it.

This is perhaps the clearest and easiest to understand verse in the New Testament. Indeed, it is so very clear and easy to understand that for more than 1,500 it was universally understood by Christians and it is still today clearly understood by the very large majority of Christians around the world. Somehow, many Baptists believe that it contradicts Ephesians2:8-9,

8. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God—
9. not the result of works, so that no one may boast.

However, the grace of God for salvation is conferred upon believers in Christ through water baptism. It is not our doing; it is the gift of God.

Craigbythesea said:

“Saved and then Baptized”? “Scripturally baptized”? There is only one instance in he New Testament of someone being saved and then Baptized: Acts 10:44-48.

44. While Peter was still speaking, the Holy Spirit fell upon all who heard the word.
45. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astounded that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles,
46. for they heard them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter said,
47. "Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
48. So he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they invited him to stay for several days.

The typical order in the New Testament is precisely the revere, baptized and the saved:

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Not only one instance at all. When the Ethiopian asked Philip for baptism, we read:

NKJV Act 8:37 Then Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
Act 8:38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.

Comparing that to the instance of the Philippian jailer, we see that believing on the Lord Jesus Christ was what was required to be saved:

NKJV Act 16:30 And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Afterwards, we read that he and his household did indeed believe, and were baptized:

NKJV Act 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized.
Act 16:34 Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household.

Anthony Pritchard said:

So the original question remains. Where does Scripture state that the church began at the resurrection? Not infer it. Not imply it. Not build a chain of reasoning. State it.

Colossians 1:18 does not.

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So the original question remains. Where does Scripture state that the church began at the resurrection? Not infer it. Not imply it. Not build a chain of reasoning. State it.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Anthony, you asked me for a verse and I gave you an in context argument from the scriptures. I showed you that the church of Jesus Christ is dependent upon Jesus Christ being the "firstborn" from the dead. I did not make that terminology up to advance my position. I have shown from scriptures right up to the very day of the crucifixion that all his companions were "servants" with the apostles and the prophets being elevated to "friends," but when they received the Holy Ghost into their bodies they were "sons" of God because this is the new birth.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

I presented the statement in Romans 1 where God declared Jesus Christ to be the firstborn son of God by his resurrection. That is chronilogical and situational

I gave you Romans 8:29 that declared Jesus as the firstborn son of God and brother of all those who are born after him in the same way he was, by the Spirit entering in his body.

I am going to prove by comparing scripture with scripture the undeniable truth that Jesus Christ, who was born at Bethlehem as the God man was bon the second time when God the Father raised him from the dead and God the Father meant it literally that Jesus was the firstborn Son of God from the dead at the resurrection. The reader will have to commit himself to the belief of the truth to accept it but the alternative is to deny this truth.

My first passage: Psa 2

1. Why do the heathen (nations) rage, and the people (Israel) imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying,
3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.


Acts 13:14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.
15 And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, Ye men and brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.
16 Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.
17 The God of this people of Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land of Egypt, and with an high arm brought he them out of it.
18 And about the time of forty years suffered he their manners in the wilderness.
19 And when he had destroyed seven nations in the land of Chanaan, he divided their land to them by lot.
20 And after that he gave unto them judges about the space of four hundred and fifty years, until Samuel the prophet.
21 And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years.
22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave their testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.
23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:
24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.
25 And as John fulfilled his course, he said, Whom think ye that I am? I am not he. But, behold, there cometh one after me, whose shoes of his feet I am not worthy to loose.
26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God (the proselytes), to you is the word of this salvation sent.
27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.
28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain.
29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.

30 But God raised him from the dead:

31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.
32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,
33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. (the day he was raised from the dead)
34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;
41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.

This is so plain that commentary from me is surely not needed for the person who has trained himself to believe the word of God. This answers two questions we have been discussing. When did Jesus Christ become the cornerstone and was his resurrection from the dead considered and taught by God the Father as a birth. Are all subsequent believers in his death, burial, and resurrection brothers with Jesus Christ?

Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

This is a new fellowship beginning with Jesus Christ at his resurrection and restricted to all but those who will receive Jesus Christ as their saviour from the penalty of their sins, which is the second death in the lake of fire.

JD731 said:

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Anthony, you asked me for a verse and I gave you an in context argument from the scriptures. I showed you that the church of Jesus Christ is dependent upon Jesus Christ being the "firstborn" from the dead.

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JD, I’m going to stay on the single question I asked.

Where does Scripture state that the church began at the resurrection? Not infer it. Not construct it. Not assemble it from multiple doctrines. State it.

You have now repeated Colossians 1:18 several times. But Colossians 1:18 does not say:

that the church began at the resurrection,
that the “firstborn from the dead” means the church began at that moment,
that Jesus’ resurrection constitutes the founding of the church,
or that believers only became part of the church after Pentecost.

Those are your theological deductions, not the text’s statements.

1. Colossians 1:18 is about Christ’s preeminence, not the church’s beginning. The verse says:

“He is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead…”

The grammar is simple:

He (Christ) is the head.
He is the beginning.
He is the firstborn from the dead.

The verse is about His supremacy, not the church’s start date.

Nothing in the verse says:

“The church began when He became the firstborn from the dead.”

You are reading that into the verse.

2. You are conflating “firstborn from the dead” with “the beginning of the church.” “Firstborn from the dead” is a Christological title, His rank, His supremacy, His victory over death.

It is not a statement about when the church began.

If “firstborn from the dead” meant “the church began at the resurrection,” then:

Revelation 1:5 would also be a church‑origin verse.
Psalm 89:27 (“I will make him my firstborn”) would also be a church‑origin verse.
Romans 8:29 (“firstborn among many brethren”) would also be a church‑origin verse.

But none of those passages say anything about the church beginning at the resurrection.

3. Acts 13 does not say the church began at the resurrection. Acts 13:33 says Psalm 2:7 is fulfilled in the resurrection. That is a statement about Christ’s exaltation, not the church’s origin.

Again, nothing in Acts 13 says:

“This is when the church began.”

You are connecting multiple passages, drawing theological conclusions, and then presenting the conclusion as though Scripture stated it.

It does not.

4. You are answering a different question than the one I asked. You are giving:

your view of new birth,
your view of adoption,
your view of the apostles’ spiritual condition,
your view of Christ’s resurrection as a “second birth,”
your view of dispensational transitions.

None of that answers the question. The question is textual, not theological:

Where does Scripture say the church began at the resurrection?

5. Your argument depends entirely on inference. You say:

“I am going to prove… the undeniable truth…”

But what follows is:

a chain of reasoning,
a theological construction,
a harmonization of passages,
and your interpretation of “firstborn.”

That is not a verse that states the church began at the resurrection. It is your doctrinal system.

6. Scripture does explicitly place the church before the resurrection. Christ said during His earthly ministry:

“I will build My church.” (Matt. 16:18)

And in Luke 6:13 He:

called the apostles,
gathered them,
named them,
and constituted them as the foundation stones (Eph. 2:20).

That is the first assembly under Christ’s authority. Nothing in Scripture says:

“The church began at the resurrection.”

7. So the question remains unanswered.

Colossians 1:18 does not say the church began at the resurrection.
Acts 13 does not say the church began at the resurrection.
Romans 8 does not say the church began at the resurrection.
Psalm 2 does not say the church began at the resurrection.

You have given interpretations, not a text.

So I will restate the question plainly:

What verse says the church began at the resurrection?

If Scripture states it, cite the verse.
If Scripture does not state it, then it is not a biblical claim.

Anthony Pritchard said:

The verbs in Psalm 118, Matthew 21, and Acts 4 do not mean Christ only began to be the cornerstone at a specific moment. They mark the public manifestation of His identity, not the origin of it. Jesus applies Psalm 118:22 to Himself during His earthly ministry, before His death, which shows He was already the rejected stone and already the cornerstone. Acts 4 is the vindication of that identity, not its beginning. Hebrews 5 speaks of Christ’s experiential obedience as High Priest, not the origin of His messianic role. The cornerstone is the Messiah in prophecy, in His ministry, and in His exaltation, the verbs do not change that sequence.

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I read up on the indicative mood and will buy stating as fact. Not sure relative to Acts 4:11. However let be ask; Relative to Psalms 118:22, the thing the LORD did that is marvellous in our eyes V 23. Did he do that thing on the day the LORD made spoken of in V 24? What day was that?

Is that the day it became a fact of the rejected stone being the head of the corner?