Where in the Bible is "mortal sin" mentioned?
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Just Wondering? Do you think Catholic Priests Are Saved?
- Thread starter Novelist
- Start date
1 John 5
“16 If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.”
Here we see venial and mortal sin explained to believers by John.
There are graduations of sin, deadly sin or mortal sin spelled out as distinct from lesser sin.
Mortal sin is what detaches people from the vine, from grace, from Christ.
“ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgement; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, ‘ You fool ! “ shall be liable to the fire of hell “ Matt 5:19, 21-22
Again we see graduations to sin, mortal sin is what leads to hell fire.
This what we see with Jesus Vine teaching about those branches that don’t remain with Him, they wither and die and end up being collected and burned by fire.
Catholic Dogma.
Catholic Scripture.
In your first quote, John is referring to the unpardonable sin, or the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, NOT some "mortal sin or venial sin" that the Catholics just made up.
Your second quote means that you are in danger of hell fire if you are not saved. Once again, there is no mention of "mortal sin" or "venial sin" anywhere in the bible.
Sorry, but sin is sin. You still don't get it.
No, it does not furnish you with that interpretation at all.
Sorry, but it sure does.
Sin is sin sure, but there is mortal sin that detaches the branch from the Vine.
The branches that don’t remain in Jesus and wither and are burned in the fire.
This is one of the great losses of the Protestant rebellion, the ministry of reconciliation, the assistance of Christs forgiveness in the Apostolic ministry.
The “ back sliders “ receive sure help and relief through this God breathed ministry.
Human opinion.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Some yes, some no, just like leadership and membership in any other church.
Catholics have the gospel (they have added a lot to it, but they do have the gospel, so salvation is possible.
Many of the early reformers, Luther, Calvin etc, were Catholic priests that wanted to @reform@ the Catholic Church from all the things added and get back to scripture alive, faith alone in Christ alone.
Let me add there can be no edification or conservation when you question the salvation of those you disagree with.
Peace to you
Same old stuff you wrote before. I still can't fine the terms "mortal sin" and "venial sin" anywhere in the Bible.
But how can I question the salvation of those I disagree with when they don't claim to be saved in the first place?
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Why do you feel the need to question anyone’s salvation?
Discuss doctrine, scripture ministry. No need to question someone’s salvation. It is clear Catholics don’t agree with Baptists.
If I were Catholic, I would tell you “of course I’m saved.” You would ask, “how were you saved?” I would say “ I believe Jesus died for my sins on a cross and was resurrected. I appropriate His saving grace through the administration the sacraments by a priest and maintain my salvation through those same sacraments given to the church by Christ and His Apostles.”
You would say, “ah ha!!” “That’s a works based salvation” and I would answer “no, that is biblical salvation as given to the apostles and passed down through an unbroken chain from the first century church to the modern church.”
And we could just disagree without questioning someone’s salvation which only generates hard feelings.
Peace to you
I have no hard feelings towards anyone. There is nothing wrong with wondering if someone is saved or not. Matthew 7:16 says, "You shall know them by their fruits." When witnessing to someone we don't know whether they are saved or not. Then, don't we ask them if they are saved? Of course we do. BTW, don't put words in my mouth. You don't know what I would say. Why do I feel the need to question anyone's salvation? I don't really. As in my OP I was just wondering if Catholic priests are saved because I never hear them give a plan of salvation in their homilies, and I believe that giving the plan of salvation to someone is sure evidence that you are saved.
Armchair Apologist
Well-Known Member
There may be a priest or two who would declare that they are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, that their hope is Christ alone, and basis of their hope is found in the scriptures alone and to God alone, they will give the glory for their salvation. They would also declare that their salvation is not dependent upon the sacramentalism of the church or whether the church of which they claim affiliation has any historical connection with the Church founded by Christ and his apostles (spoiler alert: it does not).
The official belief of the Roman Catholic Church is that one's salvation is contingent upon participation in the sacraments of the church (Baptism, Pennance, Communion, Confirmation, Marriage, Holy Orders, Extreme Unction) and that one must continue in these sacraments in order to ensure their ultimate salvation. According to Roman Catholic teaching, one becomes regenerated (born again) upon their baptism which washes away their "original sin" and as an infant (when they are usually baptized) they will remain in a state of grace until they reach an age where they are accountable for their actions and must therefore go to confession on a regular basis and do pennance ("Hail Mary, Our Father, Acts of Charity, etc.) in order to find restoration to this "State of Grace." They must also attend mass on a regular basis and partake of the communion and must keep themselves in a "state of grace" in order to do so (confession, pennance, etc.). For a Roman Catholic, having full assurance of their salvation is not a possibility as doing so is regarded as being a "Sin of presumption" which therefore assures that you are NOT in a state of Grace! If someone places their eternal hope upon being part of and participating in such a system, their hope is not in the simplicity of the gospel and I will say categorically that they are not saved!
An evangelical possessing a genuine saving faith may attend a Catholic service and hear some things which sound somewhat similar to the gospel. They do, in fact read the scriptures and when they recite the Nicene Creed, it is quite biblical in its content and they will tell you that Christ died for our sins and so forth but one must remember that they are interpreting such through an evangelical filter and fail to realize that for most Catholics, their hope is not in Christ but in the teachings and going through all of the motions prescribed by the Roman Catholic Church!
It seems as if you yourself understand the simplicity of the gospel and you come to the obvious conclusion that during the Catholic mass would be the perfect opportunity to communicate the gospel. Fact of the matter is that they are spiritually blinded to such. I was raised Roman Catholic myself and as a teenager, I was desperately searching for assurance of my salvation, that I was accepted in God's sight. What I got from our Parish Priest was the official position of the Roman Catholic Church which I stated a couple paragraphs up. In the summer of 1981, I came to a saving faith in the living, risen Savior upon hearing the simplicity of the Gospel (John 3:16-18) from a Baptist layman who had been recently hired and was working alongside me where I was employed!
When I was truly saved, I could not help but see the truth of the gospel message everywhere I looked! I continued attending the Catholic Church with my family and enthusiastically joined the youth group and played my guitar during the "guitar mass" and life was great! I thought perhaps I just didn't "get it" until now? I recall one of our parish priests giving the homily and using a picture to show us that "we all come to Christ through the cross" and I thought "AMEN! That's what happened to me!" Perhaps God can use such moments to communicate the truth of the gospel even if not understood by the person proclaiming it? All in all, I would say that one who identifies as "Roman Catholic" and has been genuinely saved has been saved in spite of, not as a result of the official doctrine and teaching of the Roman Catholic church.
Sorry for being long-winded but hope you benefit from this.
Armchair Apologist
Well-Known Member
Thank you for accurately stating the Roman Catholic position on the matter. You and I have gone a few rounds regarding this and this perfectly illustrates the key difference between you (a Roman Catholic) and myself (an Evangelical Baptist Protestant) is our understanding of the doctrine of justification and how our sanctification is related to this.
When Martin Luther speaks of being "Justified by Faith Alone," he is speaking of forensic justification - of being "declared righteous." Are you truly righteous? On what basis is such a declaration made (hint: the answer is found in Romans 8:1-4 and 2 Cor 5:21 for starters)?
Forensic justification is further illustrated in David's Psalm:
We are therefore justified not on our own merit but upon the merit of Christ and his finished, redemptive work!
Where things go awry is when we try to understand the role of sanctification with respect to our salvation. Sanctification is God working in us both to will and do of his good pleasure (Phi 2:13), of being conformed to Christ's image and likeness (Rom 8:29). It is that which men see and take note that you are no longer who you once were, that you now belong to Christ (Psa 40:3; Mt 5:16; Jas 2:14-26). Please note that our sanctification is GOD WORKING IN US! It is not that which we do on our own. We do not "strive" to be conformed to Christ's image, God is the one performing the work; we simply must yield! This is where Roman Catholics completely miss the boat thinking they have to lock themselves in a monastery somewhere, deprive themselves of any earthly pleasure, flog themselves when they think impure thoughts, and so forth. I know that not all Roman Catholics are involved in such ascetic practices but such illustrates the logical end of such right?
I can appreciate your disdain for OSAS, I truly do! Baptists behave themselves badly as do Roman Catholics who live however they want thinking everything is fine so long as they have a chat with the priest (confession) ever so often! Let's make this matter clear once and for all; if God's work of sanctification is not evident in your life, you do not possess that which you are professing! You are not abiding in Christ as you do not even belong to him!
Now, herein is the difference of which I see between those who are truly saved and those who are merely religious: One who is truly saved and is IN CHRIST is in the vine thus receiving its life and nourishment. It bears image and likeness to the rest of the vine to which it belongs. I have a grape vine in my backyard that I am trying to cultivate and bring to maturity. Other things may grow around it and perhaps even look like it is part of the vine and it is such that I must be diligent to trim and cut away. We are growing some asian vegetables in our garden and the plant will take over and choke everything else out if we are not diligent in controlling it! In order to abide in the vine, it simply has to belong and the branch may simply rest in the fact that it is part of the vine of which the husbandman (the Father) is exercising his diligence to ensure the branches remain fruitful! You cannot "Strive" to be part of this vine! You are either part of the vine (branches) or you are not! Remember that Jesus said to "Let your light so shine that they may SEE your good works..." He is not saying that we need to "do good works!" The good works is already there, we simply need to let others see them!
We simply cannot "Earn Grace" either in our salvation or in our sanctification! We simply "Rest in Christ" and allow him to perform his work in us!
This is quite disingenuous! We agree that the church is built upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets but what exactly was built and on what basis does the church stand today? Jesus did not have the 26 chapters of the New Testament but he certainly referred to the Old Testament scriptures pretty much every time he opened his mouth as recorded in the gospel accounts of the New Testament! If anyone had a high view of the scriptures, it was our Lord Jesus Christ and seeing that he did ought to cause us to take note!
This is another fundamental differnce between Roman Catholicism and Biblical Christianity: Roman Catholics believe that it is the church which gives its authority to the scriptures whereas biblical Christianity understands that it is the scriptures that give its authority to the church! We hold to the scriptures alone but not that should make the scriptures say whatever it is that we want. We both believe that it is the church that has the ultimate authority to interpret the scriptures but we have differing understanding as to who and what the church actually is. Roman Catholics point to the clergy which exists through apostolic succession and therefore asserts that it is this "ruling magisterium" which has the ultimate authority to determine what the scriptures actually say. In Biblical Christianity, it is understood that the Church is the "Called Out Assembly" of believers who read, study, search, and interpret the scriptures together!
Of what "Spoken Word" are you speaking? Where do we find such today and how is it ever authoritative to anyone?