Lukewarm

So, are you claiming this person who is 'in love' with the world is a believer or not one?

 

webdog,

let me add that I don't think "spew them out of my mouth" has to mean that they lost their salvation.

I also don't think it has to mean that they were never saved. Its not necessarily a comment on salvation at all.

 

Could it be that it is an issue of usefulness? Cold things have uses. Hot things have uses. Yet lukewarm things are not very useful.

 

...while it is not a comment on salvation directly, it is a comment on rejection. True beleivers will never be rejected.

 

I agree. The hot symbolized the medicinal waters, the cold was a reference to refreshing water to drink. Lukewarm was disgusting, murky and was good for nothing, the reason it was "vomited" out. Christ would rather have someone be "medicinal" or "refreshing" than having no desire whatsoever to please or serve Him.

 

I think that we are the ones who equate lukewarm with backsliding. In the context of the whole letter, I believe that "lukewarm" was meant to be the object of rejection, hence the phrase vomit, spue. Verse 18 is clearly dealing with the offer of salvation, while verse 20 is an open invitation. Not to mention that the opening of the chapter emphasizing Christ's deity, which corrects the heresy being taught there of first century gnosticism.

 

So, are you claiming this person who is 'in love' with the world is a believer or not one? </font>[/QUOTE]clean1, so you equate the lukewarmness with being backslidden. My question to you is: How could a Holy, Righteous God rather have ANYONE be lost, than a believer who is backslidden? He said He would rather someone be hot (in fellowship) or cold (lost) than lukewarm (backslidden)? This cannot make sense.

 

I agree here. Notice Christ wasn't allowed to be in that church, he was on the outside knocking to get in. Therefore, they could not have been effective in their setting.

there are some churches like this. They are so focused on themselves that they forget Christ, therefore, they have no real power.

 

I am not so sure this statement holds up to the light of scripture.

a person can be tempted by the world and fall, but to be characterized by a love for the world is to demonstrate that the love of the Father is not in you. Pretty clear from a number of passages.

 

Amen, superdave!

 

My explanation is that both the cold person and the lukewarm person are unsaved. The cold person doesn't masquerade as a Christian but the lukewarm one does. This masquerade is harmful to the Church.

 

I'll repeat scripture that was posted previously.

Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Christ said to the rich ruler, Go and sell everything you have and give it to the poor. The ruler went away because he wasn't willing to pay the price. People like those you have described have also decided who their master is and it isn't Christ. They are lost.

 

My explanation is that both the cold person and the lukewarm person are unsaved. The cold person doesn't masquerade as a Christian but the lukewarm one does. This masquerade is harmful to the Church. </font>[/QUOTE]I agree with your assessment for the most part. However, I have a hard time with the fact that Christ would rather have someone cold (non believer) than lukewarm (non believer posing as a believer). I think 2 Peter 3:9 would go against Christ ever wanting someone "cold". I believe you are correct that the lukewarm are lost, not "carnal" christians.

 

webdog,

Im not tryin' to argue you out of your position. If thats what you believe it means, ok. But you said you still have a problem believing it.....but if the Bible says it than we believe it, right? I mean, rather than try to turn the Bible into something we totally understand and can agree with, there are very often passages that we just have to accept, even if we don't like it.

 

bapmom, do you think the Bible is consistent in that God does not want man to perish...but to turn to Him as their Savior? Do you believe 2 Peter 3:9 when Peter says that the Lord is not willing that ANY should perish, but ALL should come to repentance? If you do, then the Scripture that says Christ would rather someone be lost (cold) than a true believer who is backslidden would not make any sense, and would contradict the Bible as a whole. The only other conclusion, then, is the phrase "cold" means something else. In the proper context within the chapter, and the geological references to hot, cold, and lukewarm water pertaining to Laodicea and the aquaduct system therein, the hot, cold, and lukewarm are not necessarily believer, non believer, and backslidden believer, but "healing", "refreshing", and murky / disgusting / sickening, to the extent that vommiting (rejection) was in order.

 

webdog,

I couldnt agree with your logic more.....which is why Ive stated that I truly believe that this passage is referring to three different types of saved people.

 

bapmom, if you believe all three were believers, what do you do with this verse:

Rev 3:18(ESV) I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see.

Laodicea was known for three primary industries: banking, wool, and eye medicine (eye salve). In the above, Christ was offering the spiritual conterparts to their three industries, meaning they already did not posses them. I like what Adam Clarke has to say in regards to this:

In addition, verse 21 tells us that those who "overcome" will be granted the right to sit with Christ on His throne. The phrase "overcome" (used in 2:7, also) or overcomer is to be a Christian...
1Jo 5:5 Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?