• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Lukewarm

Clean1

New Member
I agree with everything that Bapmom has posted here.
thumbs.gif
applause.gif
. In Revelation 3:16 it says, "So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth." God clearly states that he would rather have someone cold or hot than 'in love with the world' and claim to be 'in love' with Him. He would rather 'spew' you out of his mouth. The one verse I had previously menitoned is in Matt.6:24 and in Luke 16:13,"No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon." You can't be in love with the world and God. The verse states that that is impossible. You can love the world and like God or visa-versa.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
God clearly states that he would rather have someone cold or hot than 'in love with the world' and claim to be 'in love' with Him.
So, are you claiming this person who is 'in love' with the world is a believer or not one?
 

bapmom

New Member
webdog,

let me add that I don't think "spew them out of my mouth" has to mean that they lost their salvation.

I also don't think it has to mean that they were never saved. Its not necessarily a comment on salvation at all.
 

PastorSBC1303

Active Member
Could it be that it is an issue of usefulness? Cold things have uses. Hot things have uses. Yet lukewarm things are not very useful.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Originally posted by bapmom:
webdog,

let me add that I don't think "spew them out of my mouth" has to mean that they lost their salvation.

I also don't think it has to mean that they were never saved. Its not necessarily a comment on salvation at all.
...while it is not a comment on salvation directly, it is a comment on rejection. True beleivers will never be rejected.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Originally posted by PastorSBC1303:
Could it be that it is an issue of usefulness? Cold things have uses. Hot things have uses. Yet lukewarm things are not very useful.
I agree. The hot symbolized the medicinal waters, the cold was a reference to refreshing water to drink. Lukewarm was disgusting, murky and was good for nothing, the reason it was "vomited" out. Christ would rather have someone be "medicinal" or "refreshing" than having no desire whatsoever to please or serve Him.
 

Clean1

New Member
Webdog,
someone can be saved and in love with the world. God isn't going to remove someones salvation just because he/she turns lukewarm. Think about this: I see people get saved and attend church reguarly coming every time the doors are open. Their kids are involved in Little League or some other sport that has their 'Big Game' on Wednseday nights and Sunday nights. Now they have to choose what they should do and many choose the sport over church. They still attend church sunday morning but soon something else comes up. Pretty soon you only see them every now and then. Who do they love more? They are selling God out for sports, TV, work, etc. Does God still love them? You bet and He always will. Will God remove salvation from them? NO! But these people are showing that they are more concerned about the things of this world than about just giving God 3 or more hours of their time every week (or how ever many hours you spend at church)to spend worshipping God. In my eyes they are lukewarm or backslidding.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
I think that we are the ones who equate lukewarm with backsliding. In the context of the whole letter, I believe that "lukewarm" was meant to be the object of rejection, hence the phrase vomit, spue. Verse 18 is clearly dealing with the offer of salvation, while verse 20 is an open invitation. Not to mention that the opening of the chapter emphasizing Christ's deity, which corrects the heresy being taught there of first century gnosticism.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Originally posted by webdog:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> God clearly states that he would rather have someone cold or hot than 'in love with the world' and claim to be 'in love' with Him.
So, are you claiming this person who is 'in love' with the world is a believer or not one? </font>[/QUOTE]clean1, so you equate the lukewarmness with being backslidden. My question to you is: How could a Holy, Righteous God rather have ANYONE be lost, than a believer who is backslidden? He said He would rather someone be hot (in fellowship) or cold (lost) than lukewarm (backslidden)? This cannot make sense.
 

Clean1

New Member
Webdog, you ask some very good questions here. let me talk to my dad on this one to get a better insight.
 

tinytim

<img src =/tim2.jpg>
Originally posted by PastorSBC1303:
Could it be that it is an issue of usefulness? Cold things have uses. Hot things have uses. Yet lukewarm things are not very useful.
I agree here. Notice Christ wasn't allowed to be in that church, he was on the outside knocking to get in. Therefore, they could not have been effective in their setting.

there are some churches like this. They are so focused on themselves that they forget Christ, therefore, they have no real power.
 

superdave

New Member
someone can be saved and in love with the world
I am not so sure this statement holds up to the light of scripture.

a person can be tempted by the world and fall, but to be characterized by a love for the world is to demonstrate that the love of the Father is not in you. Pretty clear from a number of passages.
 
Amen, superdave!

2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

2 Corinthians 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

2 Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

2 Corinthians 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean [thing]; and I will receive you,

2 Corinthians 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
 

StraightAndNarrow

Active Member
Originally posted by bapmom:
I agree Clean1.

Its not that God would rather have someone be unsaved.....its that I believe God would rather have His child either completely ignore Him rather than have that child claim to be a Christian and then live a hypocritical life in front of unbelievers. Its those people who are saved but are ignoring the promptings of the Holy Spirit, quenching His voice within them, and claiming to be saved but just "coasting." Those who are just satisfied with going to church on Sundays and not doing anything else, and is in fact not living for Christ outside of church.

The lukewarm Christian is one who has lost his zeal for Christ. This does not mean he isn't saved.

The cold Christian is one who has "successfully" blocked the Holy Spirit's voice so much that he can't really hear it anymore. He doesn't even try to be close to Christ, and very often the world doesn't know who he is.

The world knows the lukewarm one is a Christian, but they also know he doesn't live like one. This is a far worse testimony for Christ than the cold Christian is.
My explanation is that both the cold person and the lukewarm person are unsaved. The cold person doesn't masquerade as a Christian but the lukewarm one does. This masquerade is harmful to the Church.
 

StraightAndNarrow

Active Member
Originally posted by Clean1:
Webdog,
someone can be saved and in love with the world. God isn't going to remove someones salvation just because he/she turns lukewarm. Think about this: I see people get saved and attend church reguarly coming every time the doors are open. Their kids are involved in Little League or some other sport that has their 'Big Game' on Wednseday nights and Sunday nights. Now they have to choose what they should do and many choose the sport over church. They still attend church sunday morning but soon something else comes up. Pretty soon you only see them every now and then. Who do they love more? They are selling God out for sports, TV, work, etc. Does God still love them? You bet and He always will. Will God remove salvation from them? NO! But these people are showing that they are more concerned about the things of this world than about just giving God 3 or more hours of their time every week (or how ever many hours you spend at church)to spend worshipping God. In my eyes they are lukewarm or backslidding.
I'll repeat scripture that was posted previously.

Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Christ said to the rich ruler, Go and sell everything you have and give it to the poor. The ruler went away because he wasn't willing to pay the price. People like those you have described have also decided who their master is and it isn't Christ. They are lost.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by bapmom:
I agree Clean1.

Its not that God would rather have someone be unsaved.....its that I believe God would rather have His child either completely ignore Him rather than have that child claim to be a Christian and then live a hypocritical life in front of unbelievers. Its those people who are saved but are ignoring the promptings of the Holy Spirit, quenching His voice within them, and claiming to be saved but just "coasting." Those who are just satisfied with going to church on Sundays and not doing anything else, and is in fact not living for Christ outside of church.

The lukewarm Christian is one who has lost his zeal for Christ. This does not mean he isn't saved.

The cold Christian is one who has "successfully" blocked the Holy Spirit's voice so much that he can't really hear it anymore. He doesn't even try to be close to Christ, and very often the world doesn't know who he is.

The world knows the lukewarm one is a Christian, but they also know he doesn't live like one. This is a far worse testimony for Christ than the cold Christian is.
My explanation is that both the cold person and the lukewarm person are unsaved. The cold person doesn't masquerade as a Christian but the lukewarm one does. This masquerade is harmful to the Church. </font>[/QUOTE]I agree with your assessment for the most part. However, I have a hard time with the fact that Christ would rather have someone cold (non believer) than lukewarm (non believer posing as a believer). I think 2 Peter 3:9 would go against Christ ever wanting someone "cold". I believe you are correct that the lukewarm are lost, not "carnal" christians.
 

bapmom

New Member
webdog,

Im not tryin' to argue you out of your position. If thats what you believe it means, ok. But you said you still have a problem believing it.....but if the Bible says it than we believe it, right? I mean, rather than try to turn the Bible into something we totally understand and can agree with, there are very often passages that we just have to accept, even if we don't like it.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
bapmom, do you think the Bible is consistent in that God does not want man to perish...but to turn to Him as their Savior? Do you believe 2 Peter 3:9 when Peter says that the Lord is not willing that ANY should perish, but ALL should come to repentance? If you do, then the Scripture that says Christ would rather someone be lost (cold) than a true believer who is backslidden would not make any sense, and would contradict the Bible as a whole. The only other conclusion, then, is the phrase "cold" means something else. In the proper context within the chapter, and the geological references to hot, cold, and lukewarm water pertaining to Laodicea and the aquaduct system therein, the hot, cold, and lukewarm are not necessarily believer, non believer, and backslidden believer, but "healing", "refreshing", and murky / disgusting / sickening, to the extent that vommiting (rejection) was in order.
 

bapmom

New Member
webdog,

I couldnt agree with your logic more.....which is why Ive stated that I truly believe that this passage is referring to three different types of saved people.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
bapmom, if you believe all three were believers, what do you do with this verse:

Rev 3:18(ESV) I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see.

Laodicea was known for three primary industries: banking, wool, and eye medicine (eye salve). In the above, Christ was offering the spiritual conterparts to their three industries, meaning they already did not posses them. I like what Adam Clarke has to say in regards to this:
I counsel thee - O fallen and deceived soul, hear Jesus! Thy case is not hopeless. Buy of me.
Gold tried in the fire - Come and receive from me, without money and without price, faith that shall stand in every trial: so gold tried in the fire is here understood. But it may mean pure and undefiled religion, or that grace or Divine influence which produces it, which is more valuable to the soul than the purest gold to the body. They had before imaginary riches; this alone can make them truly rich.
White raiment - Holiness of heart and life.
Anoint thine eyes - Pray for, that ye may receive, the enlightening influences of my Spirit, that ye may be convinced of your true state, and see where your help lies.
In addition, verse 21 tells us that those who "overcome" will be granted the right to sit with Christ on His throne. The phrase "overcome" (used in 2:7, also) or overcomer is to be a Christian...
1Jo 5:5 Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
 
Top