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The Seed of Israel

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Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Van said:
Romans 9:6-8 NET
6 It is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all those who are descended from Israel are truly Israel, 7 nor are all the children Abraham’s true descendants; rather “through Isaac will your descendants be counted.” 8 This means it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God; rather, the children of promise are counted as descendants.

Thus the seed or descendants of Abraham, or Israel or Judah, or any other Old Testament designation should not be seen through the eyes of biology, but rather through the eyes of credited belief.
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Anyone can copy and paste

And folks, note the material false statements in post #40 -

Did I say or suggest our faith is a "conditional trigger that forces God's choice?" Nope, I said the opposite, Romans 9:16.

Is the "election" of Romans 9:11 for salvation? Nope so just another false claim.

Did I say or suggest God looked ahead and foresaw Jacob's faith? Nope, so just another false claim.

Did I say or suggest the lost can "independently generate spiritual belief to get it credited to him." Nope so just another false claim.

I could go on but to no avail, as this poster is allowed to post misrepresentations non-stop.
 
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B

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Van said:
Anyone can copy and paste

And folks, note the material false statements in post #40 -

Did I say or suggest our faith is a "conditional trigger that forces God's choice?" Nope, I said the opposite, Romans 9:16.

Is the "election" of Romans 9:11 for salvation? Nope so just another false claim.

Did I say or suggest God looked ahead and foresaw Jacob's faith? Nope, so just another false claim.

Did I say or suggest the lost can "independently generate spiritual belief to get it credited to him." Nope so just another false claim.

I could go on but to no avail, as this poster is allowed to post misrepresentations non-stop.
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"Van,

We have been debating this for years, so let’s stop playing semantic hide-and-seek. You can claim you never used the exact phrase 'independently generate spiritual belief,' but that is the inescapable engine of your entire theology. Let's look at what you actually defend:

1. The Synergistic Trap

You consistently argue that God elects a group defined by credited belief. If God's choice is contingent upon a person possessing faith, then that faith is a condition. Even if you argue that the Holy Spirit "assists" or "enables" the sinner, the ultimate, deciding factor—the reason one person is elected and another is damned—rests entirely on whether the individual chooses to exert that faith. That is conditionalism, plain and simple.

2. The Denial Dilemma

In your response, you explicitly denied saying that the lost can independently generate spiritual belief. Excellent. If a sinner dead in sins (Ephesians 2:1) has zero independent capacity to produce faith, then you have only two logical choices:
  • Option A: God must first sovereignly quicken the dead soul and give it life (Phase III - Monergistic Regeneration) before they can believe (Phase IV - Conversion).
  • Option B: The dead sinner must somehow generate that belief from a carnal mind that is at enmity with God (Romans 8:7-8).
If you choose Option A, you are a monergist and election is unconditional. If you reject Option A, you are forced right back into Option B—forcing the dead sinner to generate the decisive belief to trigger his own salvation. You cannot deny the mechanics of your own system just because you don't like the terms used to describe it.

3. The Romans 9:16 Reality Check

You brought up Romans 9:16 ('So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy') to claim you don't believe in a conditional trigger. But if election is based on credited belief, then election is ultimately of him that willeth and him that runneth. You are trying to use a verse that completely flatlines human willpower to protect a system that is entirely dependent on human willpower.

4. The Romans 9:11 Escape Hatch

Claiming the election of Jacob over Esau is 'not for salvation' is a standard conditionalist deflection. Paul frames this entire chapter around a single, massive question in verse 6: Has the promise of God failed regarding the salvation of true Israel? His answer is an absolute no, because the promise is anchored in sovereign, unconditional election. To reduce 'vessels of mercy prepared unto glory' (v. 23) to mere temporal or national privileges is an exegetical absurdity.

The Bottom Line:

Van, you cannot hold the premise that faith is the basis of election without owning the logical conclusions. If election requires faith, it is conditional, it requires divine foresight, and it makes man the final arbiter of his destiny. Own your theology, or abandon it."

 
V

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Van said:
Anyone can copy and paste

And folks, note the material false statements in post #40 -

Did I say or suggest our faith is a "conditional trigger that forces God's choice?" Nope, I said the opposite, Romans 9:16.

Is the "election" of Romans 9:11 for salvation? Nope so just another false claim.

Did I say or suggest God looked ahead and foresaw Jacob's faith? Nope, so just another false claim.

Did I say or suggest the lost can "independently generate spiritual belief to get it credited to him." Nope so just another false claim.

I could go on but to no avail, as this poster is allowed to post misrepresentations non-stop.
Click to expand...
Anyone can copy and paste.
 
B

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Now that its established that scripturally there are up to three different Israel's #1. The physical nation which is formulated by all the physical seed of Abraham brought out of the land of Egypt and constituted a nation at Sinai ex 20. Note, within this nation was also spiritual Israel, True Believers in Christ..

#2 The Lord Jesus Christ, the servant of Jehovah Isa 49:3

3And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

Hos 11:1 and Matt 2:15

1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

Scripture refers this to Christ Matt 2:15

15And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Jn 15:1

1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

Ps 80:8

8Thou hast brought a vine out of Egypt: thou hast cast out the heathen, and planted it.

This vine is also called my Firstborn Son Ex 4:22-23

22And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

23And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

All the above is scripture witness that Jesus Christ is Israel..


#3. All believers who belong to Christ [Israel] are Israel or the seed of Abraham, the children of promise Gal 3:29

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Rom 9:8

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The physical jews from Abraham are not the children of promise Israel, but His spiritual children through Christ His seed are, which is the Israel of God which belongeth all the promises. 3

My Synthesis:

The Threefold Scriptural Definition of Israel
To rightly divide the Word of Truth, we must trace how the Holy Spirit systematically refines the name "Israel" throughout redemptive history—moving from the national shadow, through the singular substance, and expanding into the corporate Bride.

#1. The Typological Shell: National Israel (Exodus 20)

This is the physical, political nation formulated by the literal seed of Abraham, brought out of Egypt by Moses, and constituted as a national entity under the law at Mount Sinai.
  • The Theological Reality: This Israel was purely external and temporary—a legal and ceremonial shadow.
  • The Remnant Rule: As Romans 11:7 and Romans 9:6 establish, the entire physical populace was never the chosen people of God for salvation. Within this national shell lived a hidden spiritual remnant—true believers who possessed faith in the coming Messiah. The rest were judicially blinded.
#2. The Singular Substance: The Lord Jesus Christ (The True Israel)
This is the most critical shift that conditionalists and dispensationalists completely ignore. Jesus Christ Himself is the ultimate, true Israel of God. The New Testament handles the Exodus not as an unrepeatable national history, but as a prophetic blueprint of the life of Christ.
Look at your unassailable scriptural witness:
  • Isaiah 49:3: Jehovah explicitly looks at His Messiah and declares: “Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.”
  • Hosea 11:1 cp. Matthew 2:15: Hosea wrote historically of physical Israel: “Out of Egypt have I called my son.” But the Holy Spirit in Matthew 2:15 explicitly strips that title away from the nation and applies it directly to Jesus Christ, defining Him as the true, faithful Son who successfully comes out of Egypt.
  • Exodus 4:22-23 cp. Psalm 80:8 cp. John 15:1: God calls physical Israel His “firstborn son” and a “vine brought out of Egypt.” Yet Jesus steps into time and commands: “I am the true vine.” Christ is the reality; national Israel was merely the picture.

#3. The Corporate Fulfilment: The Israel of God (Galatians 3:29, Romans 9:8)
Because Jesus Christ is the true Israel, the true Firstborn Son, and the True Vine, union with Christ is the sole metric for covenant identity. If you are in Christ, you are in Israel.
  • Galatians 3:29: “And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
  • Romans 9:8: “They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”
The physical, ethnic Jews who reject Jesus Christ have been severed from the Vine (Romans 11:17–20). They are no longer counted for the seed. Conversely, regenerated Gentiles, having undergone the sanctification of the Spirit (Phase III) and brought to belief of the truth (Phase IV), are grafted directly into the one, true, eternal Israel.


Conclusion

" look at this ironclad layout and try to answer it with Scripture.
You are waiting for a carnal, future dispensation to restore a physical nation of dirt and genetics (#1). But the New Testament explicitly declares that Jesus Christ came to be the absolute, singular fulfillment of Israel (#2). He is the True Vine, the True Son, and the True Servant.

Therefore, the multi-ethnic Church—composed of every single elect soul who belongs to Christ (#3)—is the one and only 'Israel of God' (Galatians 6:16). We don't replace Israel; we are corporate Israel by virtue of our federal union with Jesus Christ! The physical Jews from Abraham are not the children of promise; the children of promise are those chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. The promises do not belong to genetic lineages; they belong to Christ and His Bride forever!"

 
V

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Romans 9:6-8 NET
6 It is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all those who are descended from Israel are truly Israel, 7 nor are all the children Abraham’s true descendants; rather “through Isaac will your descendants be counted.” 8 This means it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God; rather, the children of promise are counted as descendants.

Thus the seed or descendants of Abraham, or Israel or Judah, or any other Old Testament designation should not be seen through the eyes of biology, but rather through the eyes of credited belief.
 
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Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Which Israel Inherits the Promises? The True Nature of the Abrahamic Covenant and the Land Promise

Out of the three different Israels mentioned or implied in scripture (national/carnal Israel, the election within Israel, and the universal body of elect Jews and Gentiles), we must ask a critical question: Which Israel actually inherits the eternal covenant promises, including the land promise?

To answer this, we must look at the promises made to Abraham, who is the representative covenant head of both a physical and a spiritual seed. Paul defines him in Romans 4:16–17 as "the father of us all"—that is, Believing Israel, encompassing all who are of the faith of Abraham, whether Jew or Gentile. When we closely observe the Genesis record, we discover that God made two distinct types of promises to Abraham: those that excluded him personally, and those that included him personally.

The Earthly said:
Genesis 12:7: "And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land..."
Genesis 15:18: "In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates..." (See also Genesis 24:7).
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Notice the precise wording of this first category of promise. God says "unto thy seed," but He does not include Abraham personally ("to thee"). Abraham passed through the land as a traveler, but he never owned it. Furthermore, notice what is completely missing from these passages: God never states how long this physical seed would possess this earthly plot of land. This was a temporal, typical promise fulfilled nationally under Joshua and Solomon. It was bounded by the old law covenant and carried no eternal guarantee for a carnal, unbelieving race.
The Heavenly said:
Genesis 13:15: "For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever."
Genesis 17:8: "And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God." (See also Genesis 26:3 to Isaac, and Genesis 28:13 to Jacob).
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Now look at the radical shift in the second category of promise. Here, God specifically adds the words "to thee." This covenant promise explicitly binds Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob personally to the inheritance, and it declares that the possession of this land is everlasting.

This poses an insurmountable problem for a purely literalistic, earthly interpretation. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob all died without ever owning a single square inch of the promised land, except for a burial plot. If this promise was for a physical, earthly kingdom in the Middle East, then God’s word failed, because the patriarchs died without receiving it.

The Inspired New Testament Interpretation of the Land Promise said:
Hebrews 11:9-10: "By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God."
Hebrews 11:13, 16: "These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off... confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth... But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city."
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The writer of Hebrews completely shatters the dispensational myth of a future, carnal, earthly land inheritance. The Holy Spirit reveals that the true land or country the Fathers looked for was not a physical plot of dirt in the Middle East, but a heavenly country.

Because their promise was an everlasting possession that included them personally, they knew it could never be fulfilled by a temporary, earthly lifestyle. They confessed they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth because their eyes were fixed on the new heavens and the new earth—the ultimate New Jerusalem whose builder and maker is God.

This is precisely what Paul meant in Acts 26:6-8 when he stood on trial for "the hope of the promise made of God, unto our fathers." What was that hope? He immediately links it to the resurrection of the dead (vs. 8). The land, the country, and the inheritance that the true Fathers hoped for was an unshakeable reality that could only be attained through resurrection power!


Peter anchors this identical hope for the New Testament Church in 1 Peter 1:3–4, stating that God has "begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you."

Conclusion

The timeline of God's covenant stands perfectly unified. The eternal promises—including the true, spiritual land promise—do not belong to a carnal, unbelieving, national Israel. They belong exclusively to Spiritual Israel (the Church), the true seed of Abraham by faith.

Christ is the ultimate Seed (Galatians 3:16) who conquered death and secured the inheritance. His resurrection is the guarantee that every single elect soul—both Old Testament fathers and New Testament saints—will inherit the true, incorruptible, heavenly country together in the Final Phase of Salvation (Glorification). The earthly land was merely a shadow; the heavenly country is the eternal substance, and it belongs to the one undivided Body of Christ! 3

 
V

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The seed of Abraham, or the other OT Saints like Israel, indicates those with a faith like Abraham, the father of us all, including Gentiles saved under the New Covenant in His Blood. Galatians 3.
 
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Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
I have pointed out in the previous post that there are Two different covenant promises to Abraham and the Land. One Promise was without Abraham being a partaker of but only His seed, and the Other Promise Abraham was to be a Partaker of with His seed.

One Covenant Promise that did not include Abraham, but it did include His physical seed Israel was fulfilled in that God gave them the Land that He promised, but God never did stipulate in the promise, how long they would retain the Land. In fact He made certain stipulations and conditions [Deut 8:18-20;30:18] But that He did fulfill that promise is seen here in scripture :

Joshua 21:43-45

43And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.

44And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.

45There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.


Neh 9:7-8

7Thou art the LORD the God, who didst choose Abram, and broughtest him forth out of Ur of the Chaldees, and gavest him the name of Abraham;

8And foundest his heart faithful before thee, and madest a covenant with him to give the land of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Jebusites, and the Girgashites, to give it, I say, to his seed, and hast performed thy words; for thou art righteous:

So we see here, that God's word testifies to God's Faithfulness in giving Abraham's Physical seed the Land that He promised...But we also see that there was no guarantee of continuity. 4

My Synthesis:


The Two Land Covenants Revealed: Why the Earthly Lease is Dead and Exhausted

When critically examining the Old Testament land promises made to Abraham, it is vital to recognize that Scripture outlines two completely different covenant tracks regarding the land. Failing to distinguish between these two tracks leads to a carnal, nationalistic misunderstanding of biblical history and prophecy.

Track 1: The Temporal Shadow (The Promise WITHOUT Abraham) said:
The Promise: This track involved a land plot given strictly to Abraham's physical seed, Israel. It did not stipulate that Abraham himself would be a personal partaker of that specific earthly inheritance.
The Fulfillment: God completely, perfectly, and historically fulfilled this promise. Joshua 21:43-45 explicitly declares that the Lord gave Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein, and there failed not ought... all came to pass. Centuries later, Nehemiah 9:8 looked back and confirmed that God performed his words; for thou art righteous.
The Legal Parameters: God never guaranteed permanent continuity or an unconditional lease on this carnal level. He bound their possession of the physical dirt to strict, conditional stipulations (Deuteronomy 8:19-20; 30:18). National Israel flagrantly violated the contract, broke the law, and permanently forfeited the land. God performed His word by giving it, and He performed His word by casting them out of it. This physical track is legally dead and entirely exhausted.
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Track 2: The Everlasting Reality (The Promise WITH Abraham) said:
The Promise: This track is the "everlasting covenant" (Genesis 17:7-8) where God promised the land to Abraham and to his seed as an everlasting possession.


The Legal Reality: Notice the massive structural difference: Abraham personally must be a partaker of this inheritance along with His true seed. Yet, the Martyr Stephen explicitly declares in Acts 7:5 that during his earthly life, God "gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on."
The Logical Conclusion: If Abraham must personally inherit the everlasting possession, but died without ever owning a single square inch of earthly property, then this promise cannot logically or grammatically be fulfilled on a carnal, temporal level. It requires the resurrection of the dead!
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The true patriarchs understood this perfectly. They were not looking forward to a localized, political empire established by secular forces in a fallen world. Hebrews 11:16 explicitly states that they "desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city."

The true singular Seed is Christ (Galatians 3:16), and the true heirs are the single, undivided Church (Galatians 3:29). The Apostle Paul completely blows carnal geographic borders out of the water in Romans 4:13, explicitly revealing that the actual promise to Abraham and his seed was that he should be the "heir of the world" through the righteousness of faith! The local earthly Canaan was the temporary, natural shadow; the entire renewed cosmos—the new heavens and the new earth—is the eternal substance.

Our historic brother John Gill masterfully locks down this exact distinction in his commentary on Nehemiah 9:8:

"And hast performed thy words; for thou art righteous... in putting the people of Israel into the possession of the land of Canaan, which God had promised... But this was a typical land, and a temporal possession under a conditional legal administration... The true everlasting covenant made with Abraham and his spiritual seed is entirely spiritual and heavenly, and is fully realized only in Christ and His Church, who inherit the world to come."
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Conclusion

The biblical timeline remains perfectly unbroken. God did not fail to perform His word to the natural seed, nor did He leave His promises incomplete. The physical shadow was completely exhausted within Old Testament history itself. God is not hitting the rewind button on the covenant economy to move backwards from the spiritual substance to a carnal shadow.
The true Israel is the Church (1 Peter 2:9), the true Seed is Christ, and the true everlasting country is the heavenly kingdom where the elect are deeply rooted and will never be pulled up. There are not separate covenants with separate physical plots for a separate carnal race. There is one Covenant of Grace, one True Seed, one Finished Redemption, and one Heavenly Country belonging to the single, undivided Church of the Living God!

 
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