The KJV is sufficient for me

Because as has been stated over and over and over and . . .

1) That the outdated English is a hindrance to understanding for many.
2) The KJV is not perfect. Even the translators admitted such.
3) We have thousands more manuscripts, many much older than was used in the KJV.
4) Much progress has been made in gathering and understanding ancient Hebrew culture which lends to better translation.

Love your KJV as I love mine. I am a Gideon and that is all we distribute. But don't try to ram it down everyone's throats as the only "good" (not perfect) translation. Have a great day in the Lord!

 

Alex:

The KJV is certainly sufficient. But is sufficient all we need?

There was no greater defender of the KJV and the textus receptus than Edward F. Hills. This was a man of enormous intellect and training, and a great heart for the Lord. He did not, and still does not, get a proper hearing of his "believing Bible study" approach to philosophy and textual criticism.

In his The KJV Defended, he said this:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The spiritual man is drawn to the holy Bible by the logic of faith as by a magnet. For how else can he take God as the starting point of all his thinking save through the diligent study of the sacred Scriptures. They are God's revelation of HIMSELF, the eyeglasses through which we may view aright God’s revelation of Himself in nature, the key to God's revelation of Himself in history, the pure well of salvation to which the preachers of the Gospel must continually repair for fresh supplies of living water. In the Scriptures God reveals Himself as the God of Creation, the God of History, and the God of Salvation. In the first chapter of Genesis God reveals Himself as the almighty Creator God. In the Prophets He reveals Himself as the faithful Covenant God. In the Four Gospels and the other New Testament books He reveals Himself as the triune Saviour God.

Right views of the content of the Bible lead to right views of the history of its text. Because the Gospel is true and necessary for the salvation of souls, the Bible which contains this Gospel must have been infallibly inspired. And since the Bible was infallibly inspired, it must have been preserved down through the ages by God's special providence And this providential preservation took place not in holes and caves but in the usage of the Church. And it did not cease with the invention of printing. Hence the true text of holy Scripture is found today in the printed Masoretic text, in the Textus Receptus, and in the King James Version and other faithful translations. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If Dr. Hills were alive, he would hold to the NKJV, KJ21, MKJV etc as the very word of God. So even Dr.Hills who was TR only, was not KJV only.

 

Alex,

You say you want to end the bickering and arguing and then proceed to post two lengthy posts with the same false statements and diatribe that you used when you used to post in these forums. If you want to end the bickering, then end it. You are the one who started this thread. It is inconsistent to say that you want to end the bickering and arguing while starting another argument.

Decide which side you want to be on. If it is not a test of fellowship as you rightly say, then don't make it one. Accept that the people who disagree with you are as committed to God and inspiration as you are. They just have a different understanding of the issues.

 

The side I am referring to is the side about whether or not you want an argument or bickering. You say you don't but you continue to look for one. Make up your mind.

I see only 3 questions but I will answer those ... again ... though I doubt the answers will be any more convincing this time than last time.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>1. If we say that the bible was verbally inspired and preserved only in the original writings, and we do not have a perfect word today, how strong is our foundation? Did He give His perfect word only to the original writers and then lose it?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Our foundation is very strong. There is virtually no disagreement between the various manuscripts. You have asked a simplistic question designed to evoke the response you want. However, your question cannot meet the facts of evidence. It is not as simple as you have put it. The differences are minor and do not affect any doctrine. God gave his perfect word to the original writers through inspiration. He did not choose to miraculously preserve it without corruption as is evidenced by the 5000+ manuscripts among which there is not complete agreement between any two. What makes your foundation weak is a form of fideism. You say "We must have God's perfect Word" and then pronounce ex cathedra which manuscript is that perfect Word. You have made a jump of faith from one point to another because you cannot legitimately connect them. It is simply inconsistent with what God has preserved for us.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>2. Is God not able to preserve His word, perfect for us today, in every "jot and tittle"? Why would He want not desire for us to be fully equipped for battle, using a "sword" of the finest steel.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes God is able to do that. He chose not to (as is evidenced by the fact that the KJV does not have one jot or one tittle in it). I am not able to read his mind to understand why. I simply accept what he has done as his plan for the universe. I am fully equipped for battle -- in some ways more fully than you because my Bible is in my language. I do not hate the KJV or begrudge those who use it. I simply do not have to spend time defining for the congregation what the English means. I can spend more time applying it because they can read what the English means and understand it.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>3. Is it possible that satan could have worked through brilliant but ungodly men over the centuries to corrupt the very word of God for the purpose making the word less effective and causing us, His created, to fight and argue among ourselves? Could that be possible?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure it is possible. But you have not one iota of proof that he did so. The preponderance of the evidence is against you. If Satan was trying to destroy the Word of God, he surely would have done it differently. Why not delete doctrine? Why not destroy whole books? Why simply stop with a few words here and there. And why leave those words in some manuscripts? Your view of Satan is of a very incompetent manager, an Abbot and Costello sort of character who just can't quite get it done. Your view of Satan is not the Satan of the Bible and it is certainly not the Satan I experience. The fight to which you refer is a fight which your side started. Do not blame it on the MVs. It is not their fault.

[ October 17, 2001: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

Thank you Pastor Larry for saving me the trouble of stating exactly what you have.

Alex, if it were not for people who refuse to weigh the evidence (surely you have read the volumes of posts here), the bickering could end. In fact everytime the bickering settles down, someone like you comes along and throws gasoline on the smoldering fire again. Then you have the audacity to accuse those not holding to your opinion of being the instigators! Anyone with an open mind who reads all the threads on the KJVO issue would agree that MOST of the viciousness comes from the KJVO side, while people like Pastor Larry merely present the facts. Maybe it's a dislike for what the evidence reveals that causes such bitterness. Your holier than thou attitude and accusations of MVers not checking out facts lowers your credibility bar.

 

Alex,

I do share your concern for the devaluation of Scripture. Most people do not read it, in any version. And fewer live by it. I think one of the greatest reasons why people do is the same reason that I, who grew up in a Christian home with godly parents and nightly family devotions, didn’t always read the Bible. I simply didn’t understand it very well. I always read well above my grade level but the KJV simply wasn’t my language.

I do see differences in the translations. My point is that they are not now, nor have they ever been, major differences, doctrinal differences, or critical differences. There are translational choices and textual variants. Modern translators are not simply making this stuff up. They are using the totality of manuscript evidence to translate the MVs. You talk about textual criticism and mumbo jumbo from Bible school. However, you need to address the real issues. Maybe the reason you hold the position you do is because you have never honestly wrestled through these issues. Textual criticism is indispensable, even if you hold to the KJV Only position. You cannot do away with it. The question is, are you willing to be consistent with it or not. You can be consistent with textual criticism and prefer the KJV (as Thomas does). You can be consistent with it and prefer the MVs (as I and others do). You just cannot ignore it.

I do disagree that the Holy Spirit is revealing differences. The differences are in the words on the page. It takes no great spiritual benefit to see those differences. However, in my study, the significance of those differences is minimal in most places, non-essential in all places. In studying with the illumination of the Holy Spirit, I have found the differences to be inconsequential as a whole.

I do not think it is a critical issue for today’s Christians. The critical issue is that people need to read Scripture in a version that is 1) true to the original language texts and 2) in a language that they can read and are familiar with. There are translations that meet these two qualifications. I use the NASB95 for the most part. I read the NIV, KJV, and the NKJV on occasion. What is critical is that Christian’s today understand that the KJV is not God’s only word for the English speaking people and that it is not a perfect translation. People should feel free to compare good translations in order to increase their total understanding.

I do not look at every new Bible that rolls off the presses. I have no need to. I have a Bible I trust and use. For the new ones, I rely on the evaluations of people “in the know” whose opinion is trustworthy. If you have time to look at the all the new translations rolling off the presses, you should come to my church. I have something profitable you could be doing. However, you would have to leave your KJV Only ideas (not your KJV) at the door. We simply will not tolerate schismatics here.

 

&gt;&gt;It concerns me to see "believers arguing over the translations, even to the point of anger and profanity.&gt;&gt;

Welcome aboard.

HankD

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
I use the NASB95 for the most part... I do not look at every new Bible that rolls off the presses. I have no need to. I have a Bible I trust and use. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Careful Larry: sounds like the seed of NASB95-Only growing!

[ October 17, 2001: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alex Mullins:
It concerns me to see "believers arguing over the translations, even to the point of anger and profanity.

When I see this, it leads me to believe the that satan has accomplished exactly what he sarted out to do, water down, weaken and pervert God's precious word and divide believers. God is not the author of confusion.

This issue should never become a test of fellowship. The issue in and of itself has absolutely nothing to do with salvation.

I have been a student of the bible since I was saved in 1970 and, being aware of the thousands of differences in the 100+ english translations, was forced to ask myself these questions:

1. If we say that the bible was verbally inspired and preserved only in the original writings, and we do not have a perfect word today, how strong is our foundation? Did He give His perfect word only to the original writers and then lose it?

2. Is God not able to preserve His word, perfect for us today, in every "jot and tittle"? Why would He want not desire for us to be fully equipped for battle, using a "sword" of the finest steel.

3. Is it possible that satan could have worked through brilliant but ungodly men over the centuries to corrupt the very word of God for the purpose making the word less effective and causing us, His created, to fight and argue among ourselves? Could that be possible?

Gods Word is of vital importance in our development as blood-bought believers and we need to take it seriously.

It is true that many have been led to the Lord after reading the perversions and I praise God for that. We need to understand that God's Word, in and of itself, has absolutely no saving ability. It is one of three methods by which God speaks to us. It is of vital importance in our growth as believers.

Praise God, He works IN SPITE of the way man has mutilated His Holy Word.

I am a simple salesman, saved by grace. I do not understand Greek or Hebrew. I have never been to bible school, except in my own study times and those held in our church.

The God of the Bible did not expect all of his children to be Greek or Hebrew scholars to know and understand that He is able to preserve His word, perfect. He has done so in the KJV. Every word is exactly the way He wants it do be. Please don't let the "educated" tell you otherwise.

The KJV is sufficient for me. It has stood the test of time. From 1611, when 50+ godly men got together to bring us this translation, until the late 1800's, it was THE BIBLE. Following that, until today, there seems to be anew "Bible' rolling off the presses each year.

Lets stop arguing over it and begin telling our unsaved neighbours, family members, co-workers about what God has done for us and what He can do for them.

God revealed Himself in a mighty way on September 11. The name of God is on the lips of people who, prior to 9/11, only spoke of Him in profanity. Today they want Him to bless them and protect them from terrorism, while we still kill 1.4 million babies in the womb each year. America has considerable blood on her hands.

Read Isaiah 1: 15 and learn how God dealt with another nation who took their prayers to Him in desperation.

The end is drawing near folks. Time is short and we need to get lost souls saved.

End the bickering and get back to the PURE 100% word of God.....the time-tested KJV. It will never die.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alex Mullins:
It concerns me to see "believers arguing over the translations, even to the point of anger and profanity.

When I see this, it leads me to believe the that satan has accomplished exactly what he sarted out to do, water down, weaken and pervert God's precious word and divide believers. God is not the author of confusion.

This issue should never become a test of fellowship. The issue in and of itself has absolutely nothing to do with salvation.

I have been a student of the bible since I was saved in 1970 and, being aware of the thousands of differences in the 100+ english translations, was forced to ask myself these questions:

1. If we say that the bible was verbally inspired and preserved only in the original writings, and we do not have a perfect word today, how strong is our foundation? Did He give His perfect word only to the original writers and then lose it?

2. Is God not able to preserve His word, perfect for us today, in every "jot and tittle"? Why would He want not desire for us to be fully equipped for battle, using a "sword" of the finest steel.

3. Is it possible that satan could have worked through brilliant but ungodly men over the centuries to corrupt the very word of God for the purpose making the word less effective and causing us, His created, to fight and argue among ourselves? Could that be possible?

Gods Word is of vital importance in our development as blood-bought believers and we need to take it seriously.

It is true that many have been led to the Lord after reading the perversions and I praise God for that. We need to understand that God's Word, in and of itself, has absolutely no saving ability. It is one of three methods by which God speaks to us. It is of vital importance in our growth as believers.

Praise God, He works IN SPITE of the way man has mutilated His Holy Word.

I am a simple salesman, saved by grace. I do not understand Greek or Hebrew. I have never been to bible school, except in my own study times and those held in our church.

The God of the Bible did not expect all of his children to be Greek or Hebrew scholars to know and understand that He is able to preserve His word, perfect. He has done so in the KJV. Every word is exactly the way He wants it do be. Please don't let the "educated" tell you otherwise.

The KJV is sufficient for me. It has stood the test of time. From 1611, when 50+ godly men got together to bring us this translation, until the late 1800's, it was THE BIBLE. Following that, until today, there seems to be anew "Bible' rolling off the presses each year.

Lets stop arguing over it and begin telling our unsaved neighbours, family members, co-workers about what God has done for us and what He can do for them.

God revealed Himself in a mighty way on September 11. The name of God is on the lips of people who, prior to 9/11, only spoke of Him in profanity. Today they want Him to bless them and protect them from terrorism, while we still kill 1.4 million babies in the womb each year. America has considerable blood on her hands.

Read Isaiah 1: 15 and learn how God dealt with another nation who took their prayers to Him in desperation.

The end is drawing near folks. Time is short and we need to get lost souls saved.

End the bickering and get back to the PURE 100% word of God.....the time-tested KJV. It will never die.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Amen brother...PREACH IT! I love the KJV and that is all I will read. Keep on telling the truth about the good ol KJV and God will bless. I read it, my 4 kids read it and my wife loves it. Not hard to read just full of power is all. It is a soul winners Bible for sure. http://members.tripod.com/~Shark1611/index.html

 

&lt; 1. If we say that the bible was verbally inspired and preserved only in the original writings, and we do not have a perfect word today, how strong is our foundation? &gt;

Plenty strong enough. An illiterate Christian can be as 'strong' a Christian as any.

&lt; Did He give His perfect word only to the original writers and then lose it? &gt;

"Forever, O LORD, Your word is settled in heaven" (Psalm 119:89). Therefore-- No.

&lt; 2. Is God not able to preserve His word, perfect for us today, in every "jot and tittle"? &gt;

Certainly. Find out if 'jot' refers to Greek iota or Hebrew yodh then we can go with that language. English is disqualified, though.

&lt; Why would He want not desire for us to be fully equipped for battle, using a "sword" of the finest steel. &gt;

In scripture sword and plowshares are the same thing in different forms (Joel 3:10; Micah 4:3).

&lt; 3. Is it possible that satan could have worked through brilliant but ungodly men over the centuries to corrupt the very word of God for the purpose making the word less effective and causing us, His created, to fight and argue among ourselves? Could that be possible? &gt;

Yep. It's possible Satan is the cause of your arguing.

&lt; It is true that many have been led to the Lord after reading the perversions and I praise God for that. &gt;

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day" (John 6:44). So God has drawn people to Himself through what you call "perversions." Ain't that fascinating?-- Satan develops something used by God to draw people to Himself.

&lt; I am a simple salesman, saved by grace. &gt;

It is obvious you are a simple something.

&lt; He has done so in the KJV. Every word is exactly the way He wants it do be. &gt;

Show such a concept by scripture. Ideas ain't scripture and they ain't proof of anything.

&lt; From 1611, when 50+ godly men got together to bring us this translation,... &gt;

Do "godly men" oppose baptizing [immersing]only believers? Do "godly men" imprison, torture, and burn at the stake those who dare to challenge their authority? Do "godly men" {i]lie[/i]? [if the KJV is THE perfectly preserved Word of God, then they lied in their introduction by saying a variety of translations are profitable for believers]

&lt; I believe we have the perfect word in the KJV. You do not. &gt;

Well, well-- I was hoping you would get something right!

&lt; I believe the old English of the KJB is beautiful and poetic and not-at-all difficult to understand. &gt;

I suppose that's right, too. "Pisseth against the wall" (I Samuel 25:22, et al) and "teats of their virginity" (Ezekiel 23:3) and "are ye bastards" (Hebrews 12:8) are so beautiful and poetic and easy to understand.

[ October 17, 2001: Message edited by: Rockfort ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> &lt; I am a simple salesman, saved by grace. &gt;

It is obvious you are a simple something.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Come on RockFort, show a little Christ like love.