Originally posted by Rockfort:
[QB
< I am a simple salesman, saved by grace. >
It is obvious you are a simple something.
Over and over again the KJV only crowd has tried to explain their points, just to be blasted by the Modernists. I have become angry at many of the Modernists, and lost my testimony, for that I am sorry. It is a passion of mine to see the Word of God perserved, and that I believe is the KJV. If you have a problem with that then tough! I don't agree with the Modern view of the Scriptures, I state my opinion and go on. I tried in several threads to nicely end the debate, just to be blasted again (Give it up). KJVers are here to stay. If that is what we want to discuss than let the KJV only discuss it on our own. If you have disagreement that is fine being disagreeable is another thing, and that is what is happening on this forum. The quote above is just another example of Modernism. Satan loves to divide the church and I believe like Alex, he has succeeded in doing so with the Modern Versions. I would like to say that I am sorry if I have offended anyone. I enjoy a good debate, but at times things get out of hand. Alex tried to explain his position trying not to be critical about it and then right off the bat he is hammered. I wish this discussion could be done in a Christian manner or not at all. I know that I have been angry at times, and have also fallen into Satan’s trap. I pray that God can bring His people back to agreement again. My opinion is that if the Modern versions would have never been printed this discussion would not be here today, and the Church would not be divided on this issue. Again that is my opinion and that is why I do not like the Modern Versions.
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The KJV is sufficient for me
- Thread starter Alex Mullins
- Start date
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by toolman:
My opinion is that if the Modern versions would have never been printed this discussion would not be here today, and the Church would not be divided on this issue. Again that is my opinion and that is why I do not like the Modern Versions.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, the reality is that if the KJV had never been printed this discussion would not be here today. So what? And to say that you don't like MVs appears to be attacking the Word of God. There is no reason for you to attack the Word of God that way. We can differ on texts and particular translations without accusing us of being Modernists.
Most of us on this side of the discussion are absolutely and without apology committed to the biblical doctrine of inspiration. Most of us are not blasting anyone else. We are addressing false statements and illogical and unsupported arguments.
My opinion is that if the Modern versions would have never been printed this discussion would not be here today, and the Church would not be divided on this issue. Again that is my opinion and that is why I do not like the Modern Versions.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, the reality is that if the KJV had never been printed this discussion would not be here today. So what? And to say that you don't like MVs appears to be attacking the Word of God. There is no reason for you to attack the Word of God that way. We can differ on texts and particular translations without accusing us of being Modernists.
Most of us on this side of the discussion are absolutely and without apology committed to the biblical doctrine of inspiration. Most of us are not blasting anyone else. We are addressing false statements and illogical and unsupported arguments.
< It is a passion of mine to see the Word of God perserved, and that I believe is the KJV. If you have a problem with that then tough! >
Tough indeed! Tough...tough!...TOUGH!!
< I state my opinion and go on. >
Whether you do that, we shall soon see.
< If you have disagreement that is fine being disagreeable is another thing >
That must be one of those TOUGH things hard to understand.
< Satan loves to divide the church and I believe like Alex, he has succeeded in doing so with the Modern Versions. >
As he did so by dividing the [Anglican] church with the 'modern' KJV replacing the Geneva Bible?
< I wish this discussion could be done in a Christian manner or not at all. >
You may absent yourself whenever you wish.
< I know that I have been angry at times, and have also fallen into Satan’s trap. >
So this unreasonable passion for the KJV is a "trap" of Satan? That's an important admission.
< My opinion is that if the Modern versions would have never been printed this discussion would not be here today, and the Church would not be divided on this issue. >
There was a time when there was ONE, and only one, translation of scripture allowed. That was the standard and new translation efforts in the vernacular modern tongue were disallowed. That may be what you wish, but such has been the case before with the Latin Vulgate and the Catholic Church. The Anglican Church was an off-shoot sect with a heretical 'modern' version of scripture. Are you actually unable to see how your position corresponds to that of the Catholic church? with one unusual and stupefying difference... you deny (presumably) the authority of the Anglican church, the body which translated and authorized the one version of scripture you claim the be the "authorized" ['true,''preserved'] version.
But the KJV, NASB, and other translations do exist. If you don't like that....TOUGH! (nice word of yours).
Tough indeed! Tough...tough!...TOUGH!!
< I state my opinion and go on. >
Whether you do that, we shall soon see.
< If you have disagreement that is fine being disagreeable is another thing >
That must be one of those TOUGH things hard to understand.
< Satan loves to divide the church and I believe like Alex, he has succeeded in doing so with the Modern Versions. >
As he did so by dividing the [Anglican] church with the 'modern' KJV replacing the Geneva Bible?
< I wish this discussion could be done in a Christian manner or not at all. >
You may absent yourself whenever you wish.
< I know that I have been angry at times, and have also fallen into Satan’s trap. >
So this unreasonable passion for the KJV is a "trap" of Satan? That's an important admission.
< My opinion is that if the Modern versions would have never been printed this discussion would not be here today, and the Church would not be divided on this issue. >
There was a time when there was ONE, and only one, translation of scripture allowed. That was the standard and new translation efforts in the vernacular modern tongue were disallowed. That may be what you wish, but such has been the case before with the Latin Vulgate and the Catholic Church. The Anglican Church was an off-shoot sect with a heretical 'modern' version of scripture. Are you actually unable to see how your position corresponds to that of the Catholic church? with one unusual and stupefying difference... you deny (presumably) the authority of the Anglican church, the body which translated and authorized the one version of scripture you claim the be the "authorized" ['true,''preserved'] version.
But the KJV, NASB, and other translations do exist. If you don't like that....TOUGH! (nice word of yours).
Alex Mullins
New Member
Attn: Shark1611 and Toolman:
Appreciate your support fellows. Don't worry about me, I have many more Christian brothers who feel as I do, that the KJV is God's perfect, preseved Word for me, in my language, today.
I have many Christian friends who believe otherwise, that the one Bible you are using is the perfect one for you......and I love them in the Lord also.
While I know hundreds, perhaps thousands who are absolutely certain the KJV is 100%perfect, I know no one who would ever make that claim any of the perversions.
Usually, they will say, it does not exist. The "perfect word" died with the originals, or it lives in all of the versions.
Mostly though, they simply don't care. It is not important to them.
That is a tragedy.
As I said in my post of 10/16, this matter has nothing to do with salvation and should never become a test of fellowship.
There is a lot of scripture to support the position that Satan, the subtle deceiver, can, will, and has, through brilliant but ungodly men, over the centuries, corrupted the originals and, as a result, weakened the message of gods word bigtime.
To Shark1611 and Toolman, I say pray for these poor misguided souls, who criticize our position, that they too will have a burden for the truth. This is not a criticism or an attack it is spoken with the love of the Lord.
Our message is not popular but, think about it, neither was (or is) that of the one we serve.
God Bless and keep up the good work.
Gods Perfect Word shall never pass away. It will be with us to the end. That's a promise. Psalms 12: 6 - 7
Appreciate your support fellows. Don't worry about me, I have many more Christian brothers who feel as I do, that the KJV is God's perfect, preseved Word for me, in my language, today.
I have many Christian friends who believe otherwise, that the one Bible you are using is the perfect one for you......and I love them in the Lord also.
While I know hundreds, perhaps thousands who are absolutely certain the KJV is 100%perfect, I know no one who would ever make that claim any of the perversions.
Usually, they will say, it does not exist. The "perfect word" died with the originals, or it lives in all of the versions.
Mostly though, they simply don't care. It is not important to them.
That is a tragedy.
As I said in my post of 10/16, this matter has nothing to do with salvation and should never become a test of fellowship.
There is a lot of scripture to support the position that Satan, the subtle deceiver, can, will, and has, through brilliant but ungodly men, over the centuries, corrupted the originals and, as a result, weakened the message of gods word bigtime.
To Shark1611 and Toolman, I say pray for these poor misguided souls, who criticize our position, that they too will have a burden for the truth. This is not a criticism or an attack it is spoken with the love of the Lord.
Our message is not popular but, think about it, neither was (or is) that of the one we serve.
God Bless and keep up the good work.
Gods Perfect Word shall never pass away. It will be with us to the end. That's a promise. Psalms 12: 6 - 7
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alex Mullins:
There is a lot of scripture to support the position that Satan, the subtle deceiver, can, will, and has, through brilliant but ungodly men, over the centuries, corrupted the originals and, as a result, weakened the message of gods word bigtime.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Finally, someone who has identified the Scriptures that we have been beggint your side for for ages. Where are these Scriptures that support the position that the KJV is correct and the MVs are wrong? Where is the Scripture that identifies the KJV as the version that is the correct one? Maybe we are finally going to get somewhere.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>To Shark1611 and Toolman, I say pray for these poor misguided souls, who criticize our position, that they too will have a burden for the truth. This is not a criticism or an attack it is spoken with the love of the Lord.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
We are neither poor nor misguided. We do have a burden for the truth. That is why we confront the misstatments that are so common. Your message is not popular, which in and of itself is not bad. However, your message has flaws and that is a problem. As Peter said concerning persecution, rejoice when you are persecuted for righteousness but it is no glory when you are persecuted for your faults. Here is a situation where it is improper to glory in your "persecution." It comes from those who love the truth to much to let it be distorted without challenge.
There is a lot of scripture to support the position that Satan, the subtle deceiver, can, will, and has, through brilliant but ungodly men, over the centuries, corrupted the originals and, as a result, weakened the message of gods word bigtime.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Finally, someone who has identified the Scriptures that we have been beggint your side for for ages. Where are these Scriptures that support the position that the KJV is correct and the MVs are wrong? Where is the Scripture that identifies the KJV as the version that is the correct one? Maybe we are finally going to get somewhere.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>To Shark1611 and Toolman, I say pray for these poor misguided souls, who criticize our position, that they too will have a burden for the truth. This is not a criticism or an attack it is spoken with the love of the Lord.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
We are neither poor nor misguided. We do have a burden for the truth. That is why we confront the misstatments that are so common. Your message is not popular, which in and of itself is not bad. However, your message has flaws and that is a problem. As Peter said concerning persecution, rejoice when you are persecuted for righteousness but it is no glory when you are persecuted for your faults. Here is a situation where it is improper to glory in your "persecution." It comes from those who love the truth to much to let it be distorted without challenge.
Tell me the truth. I bet neither you, nor toolman, nor shark1611 have ever read a real 1611 version of the King James Bible have you? Because if you think the one you carry around came from that date---you are sadly mistaken. It has been through MAJOR revisions at least twice since that date. So, you need to subtract about 100 to 150 years (I don't recall the exact date--I'm tired and blank tonight) from the argument about how long your KJV has been around.
Does this also mean that there was no accurate Bible from Jesus' time until 1611? If so, what was it?
If you are going to argue with people on this site, you need to at least get the basics down first before making brash attacks on the modern Bibles. I am only trying to help and we are on the same side.
You were the one who brought up the thread and the arguments, I am simply correcting the errors.
God Bless
Does this also mean that there was no accurate Bible from Jesus' time until 1611? If so, what was it?
If you are going to argue with people on this site, you need to at least get the basics down first before making brash attacks on the modern Bibles. I am only trying to help and we are on the same side.
You were the one who brought up the thread and the arguments, I am simply correcting the errors.
God Bless
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Shark1611:
Amen brother...PREACH IT! I love the KJV and that is all I will read. Keep on telling the truth about the good ol KJV and God will bless. I read it, my 4 kids read it and my wife loves it. Not hard to read just full of power is all. It is a soul winners Bible for sure. http://members.tripod.com/~Shark1611/index.html<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, you are right, but so is the NIV and NASB.
Amen brother...PREACH IT! I love the KJV and that is all I will read. Keep on telling the truth about the good ol KJV and God will bless. I read it, my 4 kids read it and my wife loves it. Not hard to read just full of power is all. It is a soul winners Bible for sure. http://members.tripod.com/~Shark1611/index.html<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, you are right, but so is the NIV and NASB.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by toolman:
Originally posted by Rockfort:
[QB
< I am a simple salesman, saved by grace. >
It is obvious you are a simple something.
Over and over again the KJV only crowd has tried to explain their points, just to be blasted by the Modernists. I have become angry at many of the Modernists, and lost my testimony, for that I am sorry. It is a passion of mine to see the Word of God perserved, and that I believe is the KJV. If you have a problem with that then tough! I don't agree with the Modern view of the Scriptures, I state my opinion and go on. I tried in several threads to nicely end the debate, just to be blasted again (Give it up). KJVers are here to stay. If that is what we want to discuss than let the KJV only discuss it on our own. If you have disagreement that is fine being disagreeable is another thing, and that is what is happening on this forum. The quote above is just another example of Modernism. Satan loves to divide the church and I believe like Alex, he has succeeded in doing so with the Modern Versions. I would like to say that I am sorry if I have offended anyone. I enjoy a good debate, but at times things get out of hand. Alex tried to explain his position trying not to be critical about it and then right off the bat he is hammered. I wish this discussion could be done in a Christian manner or not at all. I know that I have been angry at times, and have also fallen into Satan’s trap. I pray that God can bring His people back to agreement again. My opinion is that if the Modern versions would have never been printed this discussion would not be here today, and the Church would not be divided on this issue. Again that is my opinion and that is why I do not like the Modern Versions.
I am responding to your post Alex because you are doing EXACTLY what you claim people who believe in Modern Versions are doing. That is, creating dissent, ill will and stirring up division. I show you how:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alex Mullins:
Attn: Shark1611 and Toolman:
Appreciate your support fellows. Don't worry about me, I have many more Christian brothers who feel as I do, that the KJV is God's perfect, preseved Word for me, in my language, today. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I can agree to disagree with each of them too. There is no historical evidence or otherwise that proves your position as right. In fact, you are playing with fire by calling God's Word in Modern Versions as coming from Satan. You should pray hard and long before making such a brash and sweeping statement that God may not agree with.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
I have many Christian friends who believe otherwise, that the one Bible you are using is the perfect one for you......and I love them in the Lord also.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
At least you are not attacking in this sentence. I think that is honorable.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
While I know hundreds, perhaps thousands who are absolutely certain the KJV is 100%perfect, I know no one who would ever make that claim any of the perversions.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I assume you left some words out of this sentence, but here you go again, making the attacks by calling God's word "perversions". I certainly don't want to be standing close to you during a thunderstorm. Please, in the name of the Lord keep these kinds of opinions to yourself if you do not want to cause strife and splitting because it is this attitude and these type of words that cause just what you are blaming us for doing. AND, it is just exactly that "YOUR OPINION", show us the facts, don't just argue perversion and Satanism all the time.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Usually, they will say, it does not exist. The "perfect word" died with the originals, or it lives in all of the versions.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This simply indicates your lack of knowledge of the subject matter. I hate to be blunt, but due to your statements and the next one below, I will respond in kind.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Mostly though, they simply don't care. It is not important to them. That is a tragedy.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
What a rude and attacking statement to make toward a Christian brother. This is an example that YOU are indeed the one who wishes to stir the pot and cause the split!
That is a tragedy.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
As I said in my post of 10/16, this matter has nothing to do with salvation and should never become a test of fellowship.
There is a lot of scripture to support the position that Satan, the subtle deceiver, can, will, and has, through brilliant but ungodly men, over the centuries, corrupted the originals and, as a result, weakened the message of gods word bigtime.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
For every example you can give me, I can give you examples of the Anglicans who changed from the Geneva Bible to the KJV were just as ungodly. Bring on the examples. Quite quoting that you have examples. Let us deal with them one at a time. We are ready and we can debate in brotherly love.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
To Shark1611 and Toolman, I say pray for these poor misguided souls, who criticize our position, that they too will have a burden for the truth. This is not a criticism or an attack it is spoken with the love of the Lord.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
We will pray for you for your misguided and uninformed beliefs. If "This is not a criticism or an attack" then I don't think you would keep saying that we are misguided souls following Satan's bibles and attacking the Word of God the way you have.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Our message is not popular but, think about it, neither was (or is) that of the one we serve.
God Bless and keep up the good work.
Gods Perfect Word shall never pass away. It will be with us to the end. That's a promise. Psalms 12: 6 - 7<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sure it isn't popular, much more information is available to us today than was available to the Anglican translators. If you have HONESTLY read every single translation from cover to cover you could not be saying that they were from Satan, nor were they watered down.
Let me ask one simple question. These same "inspired" translators translated the apocrypha. Do you believe in it? Why not, if they were inspired?
I also challenge you again that your Bible was not translated in 1611 and that I seriously doubt that you can even read a 1611 version. . .
I am going to use Paul's method here and be extremely blunt in the name of the Lord that YOU are the one who is being devisive and causing the arguments among the translations. If you had not started and continued this thread, then there would have been no debate! And don't dare continue making statements about the way people who disagree with you feel about the Bible with your obvious lack of understanding. Sorry to get a little tough, but I'm doing no more than Paul did when his doctrinal beliefs were challenged. I have tried and tried to be diplomatic, only to be challenged with condescending statements regarding people with education or anybody that simply disagrees with you.
May God bless you and I will be praying for you that God sees your heart that you do not mean the devisive evil when you attribute his Holy Word to that of his greatest advisary, Satan.
[ October 19, 2001: Message edited by: Phillip ]
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alex Mullins:
Attn: Shark1611 and Toolman:
Appreciate your support fellows. Don't worry about me, I have many more Christian brothers who feel as I do, that the KJV is God's perfect, preseved Word for me, in my language, today. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I can agree to disagree with each of them too. There is no historical evidence or otherwise that proves your position as right. In fact, you are playing with fire by calling God's Word in Modern Versions as coming from Satan. You should pray hard and long before making such a brash and sweeping statement that God may not agree with.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
I have many Christian friends who believe otherwise, that the one Bible you are using is the perfect one for you......and I love them in the Lord also.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
At least you are not attacking in this sentence. I think that is honorable.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
While I know hundreds, perhaps thousands who are absolutely certain the KJV is 100%perfect, I know no one who would ever make that claim any of the perversions.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I assume you left some words out of this sentence, but here you go again, making the attacks by calling God's word "perversions". I certainly don't want to be standing close to you during a thunderstorm. Please, in the name of the Lord keep these kinds of opinions to yourself if you do not want to cause strife and splitting because it is this attitude and these type of words that cause just what you are blaming us for doing. AND, it is just exactly that "YOUR OPINION", show us the facts, don't just argue perversion and Satanism all the time.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Usually, they will say, it does not exist. The "perfect word" died with the originals, or it lives in all of the versions.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This simply indicates your lack of knowledge of the subject matter. I hate to be blunt, but due to your statements and the next one below, I will respond in kind.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Mostly though, they simply don't care. It is not important to them. That is a tragedy.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
What a rude and attacking statement to make toward a Christian brother. This is an example that YOU are indeed the one who wishes to stir the pot and cause the split!
That is a tragedy.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
As I said in my post of 10/16, this matter has nothing to do with salvation and should never become a test of fellowship.
There is a lot of scripture to support the position that Satan, the subtle deceiver, can, will, and has, through brilliant but ungodly men, over the centuries, corrupted the originals and, as a result, weakened the message of gods word bigtime.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
For every example you can give me, I can give you examples of the Anglicans who changed from the Geneva Bible to the KJV were just as ungodly. Bring on the examples. Quite quoting that you have examples. Let us deal with them one at a time. We are ready and we can debate in brotherly love.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
To Shark1611 and Toolman, I say pray for these poor misguided souls, who criticize our position, that they too will have a burden for the truth. This is not a criticism or an attack it is spoken with the love of the Lord.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
We will pray for you for your misguided and uninformed beliefs. If "This is not a criticism or an attack" then I don't think you would keep saying that we are misguided souls following Satan's bibles and attacking the Word of God the way you have.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Our message is not popular but, think about it, neither was (or is) that of the one we serve.
God Bless and keep up the good work.
Gods Perfect Word shall never pass away. It will be with us to the end. That's a promise. Psalms 12: 6 - 7<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sure it isn't popular, much more information is available to us today than was available to the Anglican translators. If you have HONESTLY read every single translation from cover to cover you could not be saying that they were from Satan, nor were they watered down.
Let me ask one simple question. These same "inspired" translators translated the apocrypha. Do you believe in it? Why not, if they were inspired?
I also challenge you again that your Bible was not translated in 1611 and that I seriously doubt that you can even read a 1611 version. . .
I am going to use Paul's method here and be extremely blunt in the name of the Lord that YOU are the one who is being devisive and causing the arguments among the translations. If you had not started and continued this thread, then there would have been no debate! And don't dare continue making statements about the way people who disagree with you feel about the Bible with your obvious lack of understanding. Sorry to get a little tough, but I'm doing no more than Paul did when his doctrinal beliefs were challenged. I have tried and tried to be diplomatic, only to be challenged with condescending statements regarding people with education or anybody that simply disagrees with you.
May God bless you and I will be praying for you that God sees your heart that you do not mean the devisive evil when you attribute his Holy Word to that of his greatest advisary, Satan.
[ October 19, 2001: Message edited by: Phillip ]
Dr. Cassidy,
I honestly believe this thread has turned into another repetition of the same old argument used over and over with very little new material being injected. I have absolutely nothing wrong with the KJV, but get tired of being accused of hating it or following a "perverted Bible" if I wish to study one of the new versions. This thread is nothing more than a shouting contest that contains no useful information and continues to get worse as it continues.
Personally, I suggest we use the three page rule and go ahead and close this thread as I see it doing no good except providing a shouting forum between two disagreeing elements.
Just my thoughts.
God Bless.
I honestly believe this thread has turned into another repetition of the same old argument used over and over with very little new material being injected. I have absolutely nothing wrong with the KJV, but get tired of being accused of hating it or following a "perverted Bible" if I wish to study one of the new versions. This thread is nothing more than a shouting contest that contains no useful information and continues to get worse as it continues.
Personally, I suggest we use the three page rule and go ahead and close this thread as I see it doing no good except providing a shouting forum between two disagreeing elements.
Just my thoughts.
God Bless.
Alex Mullins
New Member
Dr Cassidy, Phillip, others
We have so many believers that do not believe God could or would inspire His word, perfect, and then preserve it through the centuries, then give it to you and me, perfectly, in the English language. He just permitted it to be lost, they say.
Furthermore, when someone comes along that does believe God has the power and the ability and the desire to do what He said He would do, they do all they can to attack and destroy that belief and the faith one has in it.
A warning to others: If you can see this as being "an issue" and you take your stand, openly and unashamedly for the KJV as being your final authority, the pure and true word of God, perfect in every respect for you in the English language today, then you WILL lose friends and make enenies. But know that you will make new friends along the way and you will find lots of support for this position.
Don't ever stop believing that God can and did preserve His word without error, perfect and infallible in the KJV.
It has been with us for thousands of years, 390 of those years in the KJV.
I agree with you. It is now time to invoke the three page rule and close this thread.
Don't forget to read Luke 21: 33, Matt 24;24, Psalm 12 6-7
May God bless and guide you in your search for that easier-to-read version. There should be another one rolling off the presses any second now.
We have so many believers that do not believe God could or would inspire His word, perfect, and then preserve it through the centuries, then give it to you and me, perfectly, in the English language. He just permitted it to be lost, they say.
Furthermore, when someone comes along that does believe God has the power and the ability and the desire to do what He said He would do, they do all they can to attack and destroy that belief and the faith one has in it.
A warning to others: If you can see this as being "an issue" and you take your stand, openly and unashamedly for the KJV as being your final authority, the pure and true word of God, perfect in every respect for you in the English language today, then you WILL lose friends and make enenies. But know that you will make new friends along the way and you will find lots of support for this position.
Don't ever stop believing that God can and did preserve His word without error, perfect and infallible in the KJV.
It has been with us for thousands of years, 390 of those years in the KJV.
I agree with you. It is now time to invoke the three page rule and close this thread.
Don't forget to read Luke 21: 33, Matt 24;24, Psalm 12 6-7
May God bless and guide you in your search for that easier-to-read version. There should be another one rolling off the presses any second now.
If I believe that something is Wrong, I am going to state my opinion. Like Alex said
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>A warning to others: If you can see this as being "an issue" and you take your stand, openly and unashamedly for the KJV as being your final authority, the pure and true word of God, perfect in every respect for you in the English language today, then you WILL lose friends and make enenies. But know that you will make new friends along the way and you will find lots of support for this position.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That is the difference. If you believe in many translations, than you have to accept the JW bible, the Mormon Bible, where does it end. In my opinion it ends with the KJV. As I have stated before the 1611 was updated not changed the modern versions have been changed since 1611, not just updated.
[ October 19, 2001: Message edited by: toolman ]
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Well, the reality is that if the KJV had never been printed this discussion would not be here today. So what? And to say that you don't like MVs appears to be attacking the Word of God. There is no reason for you to attack the Word of God that way. We can differ on texts and particular translations without accusing us of being Modernists. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Then there would have only been out dated English version's of the Bible until the 1800's. Defending the KJV 1611 is the same as defending the KJV 1757, I believe nothing was changed, on the other hand defending the modern versions is totally diffenent. I understand that the English Bible needed to be updated but not CHANGED. That is where the problem is. We are stating FACT. Many times we have tried to explain the changing of the Scriptures, and we are called ignorant. When you would rather read the Word of God without the blood atonement, and the virgin birth, that is your right, but I am going to stand against them until the day I die. I believe it is wrong! Don't call us ignorant. I have prayed and studied hard on this subject. That is what God has revealed to me. You can suggest that we pray more on this subject, but what makes you think we haven’t. Are only those that use modern versions intelligent?
I DEFEND the KJV the Word of God!
[ October 19, 2001: Message edited by: toolman ]
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>A warning to others: If you can see this as being "an issue" and you take your stand, openly and unashamedly for the KJV as being your final authority, the pure and true word of God, perfect in every respect for you in the English language today, then you WILL lose friends and make enenies. But know that you will make new friends along the way and you will find lots of support for this position.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That is the difference. If you believe in many translations, than you have to accept the JW bible, the Mormon Bible, where does it end. In my opinion it ends with the KJV. As I have stated before the 1611 was updated not changed the modern versions have been changed since 1611, not just updated.
[ October 19, 2001: Message edited by: toolman ]
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Well, the reality is that if the KJV had never been printed this discussion would not be here today. So what? And to say that you don't like MVs appears to be attacking the Word of God. There is no reason for you to attack the Word of God that way. We can differ on texts and particular translations without accusing us of being Modernists. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Then there would have only been out dated English version's of the Bible until the 1800's. Defending the KJV 1611 is the same as defending the KJV 1757, I believe nothing was changed, on the other hand defending the modern versions is totally diffenent. I understand that the English Bible needed to be updated but not CHANGED. That is where the problem is. We are stating FACT. Many times we have tried to explain the changing of the Scriptures, and we are called ignorant. When you would rather read the Word of God without the blood atonement, and the virgin birth, that is your right, but I am going to stand against them until the day I die. I believe it is wrong! Don't call us ignorant. I have prayed and studied hard on this subject. That is what God has revealed to me. You can suggest that we pray more on this subject, but what makes you think we haven’t. Are only those that use modern versions intelligent?
I DEFEND the KJV the Word of God!
[ October 19, 2001: Message edited by: toolman ]
DocCas
New Member
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Phillip:
Dr. Cassidy,
I honestly believe this thread has turned into another repetition of the same old argument used over and over with very little new material being injected. I have absolutely nothing wrong with the KJV, but get tired of being accused of hating it or following a "perverted Bible" if I wish to study one of the new versions. This thread is nothing more than a shouting contest that contains no useful information and continues to get worse as it continues.
Personally, I suggest we use the three page rule and go ahead and close this thread as I see it doing no good except providing a shouting forum between two disagreeing elements.
Just my thoughts.
God Bless.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, if the noise level has gotten too high, I suggest you stop shouting!
As to the "three page rule." That is not my rule, nor the BB's rule. It is a rule of another Moderator in another forum.
I am still hoping that Alex will answer my question, and if he cannot answer it, and realizes he cannot answer it, he may then, perhaps, listen to some reason.
The only time hope is lost is when the discussion is forceably closed.
Dr. Cassidy,
I honestly believe this thread has turned into another repetition of the same old argument used over and over with very little new material being injected. I have absolutely nothing wrong with the KJV, but get tired of being accused of hating it or following a "perverted Bible" if I wish to study one of the new versions. This thread is nothing more than a shouting contest that contains no useful information and continues to get worse as it continues.
Personally, I suggest we use the three page rule and go ahead and close this thread as I see it doing no good except providing a shouting forum between two disagreeing elements.
Just my thoughts.
God Bless.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, if the noise level has gotten too high, I suggest you stop shouting!
As to the "three page rule." That is not my rule, nor the BB's rule. It is a rule of another Moderator in another forum.
I am still hoping that Alex will answer my question, and if he cannot answer it, and realizes he cannot answer it, he may then, perhaps, listen to some reason.
The only time hope is lost is when the discussion is forceably closed.
DocCas
New Member
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alex Mullins:
We have so many believers that do not believe God could or would inspire His word, perfect, and then preserve it through the centuries, then give it to you and me, perfectly, in the English language. He just permitted it to be lost, they say.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Okay, Alex, what evidence do you offer to show that God preserved His word in any one text or MSS tradition? And what evidence do you offer to show those preserved MSS were then translated, verbatum, into the KJV? And what evidence do you offer that those who believe the modern versions are as good as or even superior to the KJV believe God permitted His word to be lost? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Furthermore, when someone comes along that does believe God has the power and the ability and the desire to do what He said He would do, they do all they can to attack and destroy that belief and the faith one has in it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Again, do you have any evidence to offer? Faith is no better than the object you place that faith in. Why do you place your faith in the KJV. What substance, what evidence (faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen) do you offer to validate your position? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>A warning to others: If you can see this as being "an issue" and you take your stand, openly and unashamedly for the KJV as being your final authority, the pure and true word of God, perfect in every respect for you in the English language today, then you WILL lose friends and make enenies. But know that you will make new friends along the way and you will find lots of support for this position.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>But, Alex, don't you see? You are not being open and honest about this issue. You refuse to give your evidence for what you believe. You refuse to state the substance and evidence which shows the KJV is superior to the modern versions and the texts which underlie the KJV are superior to the texts which underlie the modern versions. You have not been forthcoming at all. You just make a statement and demand we accept it as fact. That is not the Baptist way. That is the Catholic way (ex-cathedra). <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Don't ever stop believing that God can and did preserve His word without error, perfect and infallible in the KJV.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I believe God can do anything, but what evidence do you offer to show God did as you claim? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>It has been with us for thousands of years, 390 of those years in the KJV.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>And what form did it take prior to 1611? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I agree with you. It is now time to invoke the three page rule and close this thread.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That is a pretty good way to avoid answering questions, but why go away a loser? Why not state your evidence and go away a winner, or at least a player? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Don't forget to read Luke 21: 33, Matt 24;24, Psalm 12 6-7<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>These are great verses, but they are also in the ERV, ASV, RSV, NASV, NIV, etc., etc., etc. Where do you get "KJV" out of those verses? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>May God bless and guide you in your search for that easier-to-read version. There should be another one rolling off the presses any second now.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I don't need an easier-to-read version. I have my KJV. But I believe it based on the evidence, not upon a stubborn insistance I am right and everybody else is wrong. Again, if you have evidence to offer, please do so. If not, admit you are arguing from ignorance and really don't know what you are talking about, and let those who actually understand the issue defend the KJV, instead of making it a laughing stock.
[ October 19, 2001: Message edited by: Thomas Cassidy ]
We have so many believers that do not believe God could or would inspire His word, perfect, and then preserve it through the centuries, then give it to you and me, perfectly, in the English language. He just permitted it to be lost, they say.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Okay, Alex, what evidence do you offer to show that God preserved His word in any one text or MSS tradition? And what evidence do you offer to show those preserved MSS were then translated, verbatum, into the KJV? And what evidence do you offer that those who believe the modern versions are as good as or even superior to the KJV believe God permitted His word to be lost? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Furthermore, when someone comes along that does believe God has the power and the ability and the desire to do what He said He would do, they do all they can to attack and destroy that belief and the faith one has in it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Again, do you have any evidence to offer? Faith is no better than the object you place that faith in. Why do you place your faith in the KJV. What substance, what evidence (faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen) do you offer to validate your position? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>A warning to others: If you can see this as being "an issue" and you take your stand, openly and unashamedly for the KJV as being your final authority, the pure and true word of God, perfect in every respect for you in the English language today, then you WILL lose friends and make enenies. But know that you will make new friends along the way and you will find lots of support for this position.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>But, Alex, don't you see? You are not being open and honest about this issue. You refuse to give your evidence for what you believe. You refuse to state the substance and evidence which shows the KJV is superior to the modern versions and the texts which underlie the KJV are superior to the texts which underlie the modern versions. You have not been forthcoming at all. You just make a statement and demand we accept it as fact. That is not the Baptist way. That is the Catholic way (ex-cathedra). <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Don't ever stop believing that God can and did preserve His word without error, perfect and infallible in the KJV.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I believe God can do anything, but what evidence do you offer to show God did as you claim? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>It has been with us for thousands of years, 390 of those years in the KJV.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>And what form did it take prior to 1611? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I agree with you. It is now time to invoke the three page rule and close this thread.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That is a pretty good way to avoid answering questions, but why go away a loser? Why not state your evidence and go away a winner, or at least a player? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Don't forget to read Luke 21: 33, Matt 24;24, Psalm 12 6-7<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>These are great verses, but they are also in the ERV, ASV, RSV, NASV, NIV, etc., etc., etc. Where do you get "KJV" out of those verses? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>May God bless and guide you in your search for that easier-to-read version. There should be another one rolling off the presses any second now.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I don't need an easier-to-read version. I have my KJV. But I believe it based on the evidence, not upon a stubborn insistance I am right and everybody else is wrong. Again, if you have evidence to offer, please do so. If not, admit you are arguing from ignorance and really don't know what you are talking about, and let those who actually understand the issue defend the KJV, instead of making it a laughing stock.
[ October 19, 2001: Message edited by: Thomas Cassidy ]
Alex Mullins
New Member
Thomas:
You ask for evidence that what I say is true. The Bible itself says that He will preserve His word in Psalm 12: 6-7 and Luke 21: 33. It is up to us who believe that He did what He said.
Believing that, we can then determine where it is.... or where it is not!
History has made it easier to spot the perversions of the gospel.
Using the process of elimination and the history books, recognizing that every scripture today including the KJV, is a copy of something.
Since you don't seem to know the History of the bible too well, I will attempt to condense it for you.
Prior to the King James (1611), it was in the Geneva Bible (1560), prior to that, The Mathews bible (1537), the Tyndale (1525).
There were other English Bibles, but I am uncertain as to their reliability. Bibles such as the Bishops (1568), Douay (1610), Great (1539) Coverdale (1535), Wycliffe (1380).
All of these English translations, leading up to the KJV, were translated from the group of texts known as the Majority Text,the Byzantine Text, the Imperial text, The Traditional and the Reformation Texts. All of these culminated in the Textus Receptus. These manuscripts were also known as the Universal Text due to their universal acceptance. More on this later.
Remember, the KJV was the last English Bible to be translated from this line of manuscripts. It is unique in that respect.
Literally ALL of the other versions,The Revised Version (1881), American Standard (1901), NIV (1948), RSV (1952), RSV (1952),Amplified (1965), JB (1966), NEB (1970), NASB (1971), LB paraphrased (1971), NIV (1978), NKJV (1982), the Catholic bible plus many more, came from a combination of earlier manuscripts (Minority Text), Egyptian Text, The Hesychian text, the Codex Alexandrinus, Vaticanus and Siniaticus as well as Dead Sea scrolls and Newer Manuscripts.
All of these manuscripts, from which every English Version since the Revised version of 1881 evolved, have attacked and weakened the beloved doctrines of Scripture such as, the blood atonement, the trinity, the virgin birth, the deity of Christ and others. It is most evident in the translations which came from these texts.
You simply cannot overlook the FACTs that the Codex Siniaticus and Vaticanus were corrupt manuscripts. God did not corrupt them. Satan, working through the humanistic hearts of mankind did that. And, today, we call it God's Word. Wake up and smell the coffee, folks.
They were corrupted by such as Wescott and Hort in their text of 1881 when it was collated with Weymouths Third edition and Tischendorf's (the discoverer of the Codex Siiaticus) eighth edition by Eberhard Nestle to become what is known as Nestle's Greek New testament. This is the text used in all of the modern versions.
The Universal Text(preserved perfect), on the other hand, travelled north from Jerusalem to Antioch, which was known as the "Gateway to Europe". It spread through Syria and Europe. It was, at this point, translated into The Syrian Peshitto version and the old Latin Vulgate.
From there to England where God chose to have His perfect word translated into the English language because He knew that would be the universally accepted language.
The History of the preserved word is a fascinating study and too lengthy for this forum. Suffice it to say, we have it Whether we choose to use it is up to us.
Suffice it to say that there were two distinct threads of Bibles stemming from these manuscripts the evidence is very much with us today. One need only look at them breifly to know they are different Bibles.
The modern versions are all in agreement against the KJV in the fundamental doctrines
of our faith noted earlier. They weaken the message of the gospel in thousands of words and passages, some of them glaring, some of them very subtle. That is another whole topic.
This thing has gone on too long and too much time has been spent rehashing what has been known for centuries by anyone who cares to study the history of the Bible in an open and objective way.
Suffice it to say that satan has accomplished his obective of making many of you believe that the KJV is too hard to read and understand.
The facts are clear. God has chosen to preserve His Word perfect in the KJV for us want it.
The KJV is more than sufficient for me.
You ask for evidence that what I say is true. The Bible itself says that He will preserve His word in Psalm 12: 6-7 and Luke 21: 33. It is up to us who believe that He did what He said.
Believing that, we can then determine where it is.... or where it is not!
History has made it easier to spot the perversions of the gospel.
Using the process of elimination and the history books, recognizing that every scripture today including the KJV, is a copy of something.
Since you don't seem to know the History of the bible too well, I will attempt to condense it for you.
Prior to the King James (1611), it was in the Geneva Bible (1560), prior to that, The Mathews bible (1537), the Tyndale (1525).
There were other English Bibles, but I am uncertain as to their reliability. Bibles such as the Bishops (1568), Douay (1610), Great (1539) Coverdale (1535), Wycliffe (1380).
All of these English translations, leading up to the KJV, were translated from the group of texts known as the Majority Text,the Byzantine Text, the Imperial text, The Traditional and the Reformation Texts. All of these culminated in the Textus Receptus. These manuscripts were also known as the Universal Text due to their universal acceptance. More on this later.
Remember, the KJV was the last English Bible to be translated from this line of manuscripts. It is unique in that respect.
Literally ALL of the other versions,The Revised Version (1881), American Standard (1901), NIV (1948), RSV (1952), RSV (1952),Amplified (1965), JB (1966), NEB (1970), NASB (1971), LB paraphrased (1971), NIV (1978), NKJV (1982), the Catholic bible plus many more, came from a combination of earlier manuscripts (Minority Text), Egyptian Text, The Hesychian text, the Codex Alexandrinus, Vaticanus and Siniaticus as well as Dead Sea scrolls and Newer Manuscripts.
All of these manuscripts, from which every English Version since the Revised version of 1881 evolved, have attacked and weakened the beloved doctrines of Scripture such as, the blood atonement, the trinity, the virgin birth, the deity of Christ and others. It is most evident in the translations which came from these texts.
You simply cannot overlook the FACTs that the Codex Siniaticus and Vaticanus were corrupt manuscripts. God did not corrupt them. Satan, working through the humanistic hearts of mankind did that. And, today, we call it God's Word. Wake up and smell the coffee, folks.
They were corrupted by such as Wescott and Hort in their text of 1881 when it was collated with Weymouths Third edition and Tischendorf's (the discoverer of the Codex Siiaticus) eighth edition by Eberhard Nestle to become what is known as Nestle's Greek New testament. This is the text used in all of the modern versions.
The Universal Text(preserved perfect), on the other hand, travelled north from Jerusalem to Antioch, which was known as the "Gateway to Europe". It spread through Syria and Europe. It was, at this point, translated into The Syrian Peshitto version and the old Latin Vulgate.
From there to England where God chose to have His perfect word translated into the English language because He knew that would be the universally accepted language.
The History of the preserved word is a fascinating study and too lengthy for this forum. Suffice it to say, we have it Whether we choose to use it is up to us.
Suffice it to say that there were two distinct threads of Bibles stemming from these manuscripts the evidence is very much with us today. One need only look at them breifly to know they are different Bibles.
The modern versions are all in agreement against the KJV in the fundamental doctrines
of our faith noted earlier. They weaken the message of the gospel in thousands of words and passages, some of them glaring, some of them very subtle. That is another whole topic.
This thing has gone on too long and too much time has been spent rehashing what has been known for centuries by anyone who cares to study the history of the Bible in an open and objective way.
Suffice it to say that satan has accomplished his obective of making many of you believe that the KJV is too hard to read and understand.
The facts are clear. God has chosen to preserve His Word perfect in the KJV for us want it.
The KJV is more than sufficient for me.