So what about the Rich Young Ruler?

Npetreley,

When does one change from being "natural man" to one who can discern the things of the spirit of God? NOT UNTIL ONE COMES TO BELIEVE IN GOD! For before that he is but a natural man unable to receive the things of the Spirit of God! Belief, what the spirit of man does, is the key element to the transformation from natural to spiritual. God does not force this change in man because He, God, leaves it up to man to choose Him. Until man trusts God, trust coming from knowledge, man remains "natural" and unable to receive from God things of the Spirit.

Because God is spirit, the things of God (that which emanates from or belongs to), are also spirit. Because man is made in the image of God, he too must be spirit. Because of disobedience to God, man has separated himself from God and cannot receive from him the things of the Spirit. It is only by believing and receiving the cleansing from sin that man is restored, made spiritual, to be able to receive from the Spirit.

So how then does one receive this "cleansing from sin"? "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God..." Belief comes from knowledge!

Russell55, The Holy Spirit acts as a cheerleader to us in that while we are "hearing the word". HE testifies that what we are "hearing" is the truth, but HE does not change our minds, the Word (knowledge) changes our minds. Thank God for the Holy Spirit, but even more so for the Word!

God created us with the ability to "hear" and to evaluate, and to act on what we hear according to our evaluation of it. Why would He not abide by the way that He created us? To do otherwise is to force Himself upon us, and he simply does not do that on an individual basis. He can be like the irritating telephone, always trying to get our attention, but he does not make us answer the call, it is up to us, our choice, to pick up the phone.

 

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"
" For God so Loved the world that he Gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life"

The word brings knowledge of God, and it can all by itself cause one to come to belief in God, The Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Prophet told us that God said so! And YES it is God's desire that ALL return to him through belief (faith).

[ November 09, 2002, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]

 

How does man believe before he can discern any of the things of the Spirit of God?

Ken
A Spurgeonite

[ November 09, 2002, 05:56 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

Good question! And how does one believe before he has full assurance of the truth of the gospel, something that is given to us by the Holy Spirit?

 

So says you.

And where do we get ears to hear the Word of God? I notice Jesus often said, "He who has ears, let him hear." What He did not say is, "Everyone hears, but some of you will choose of your own free will to listen."

So where does one get ears to hear?

And where does this knowledge come from that you hear?

Why have we received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God?

So says the Bible.

 

If you purchase a complex home entertainment center but fail to read the setup instructions, you may not get your money's worth. You may not be able to receive all that you paid for.

The same with matters of the spirit. If you fail to read the instructions, you cannot know the fullness of the spiritual life. When all else fails, read the book!

 

You asked earlier

First, belief or disbelief in anything occurs in the spirit because the flesh does not have the capability of belief. So, how does man believe anything? He sees, hears, smells, tastes and feels, then makes a decision about it. Assuming his decision is correct, he has knowledge upon which to believe. If it is incorrect, he has the basis for not believing. And yes, man can believe the wrong things to be true. All mankind works the same way.

Believing in things spiritual is no different because you still must receive information upon which to make a decision. The difference here is that the Holy Spirit acts as a witness to affirm the information we receive, but we still must choose what we believe based on the information available to us.

 

Why do you think we CHOOSE what we believe?

I know we choose whom we will serve, we choose to follow Christ; but what evidence do you have that we choose what we believe?

Doesn't belief involve assurance and conviction that something is true? How can we choose to be assured or convinced of something?

As an example: If I have a hunch my child is lying to me, I can't DECIDE to believe them. I may decide to act as if I believe them, but as long as I am not convinced that they are being truthful, I can't really believe them.

And the opposite is also true. If I really am convinced that my child is telling the truth, then I can't choose not to belive them. The conviction that they are telling the truth IS belief.

If, as you say, the Holy Spirit acts as a witness to affirm the information (or as the verse I quoted says: The HS gives us full assurance of the truth), then how can anyone who is given this full assurance choose not to believe. If they are convinced (or fully assured) it is true, then they believe it, in the same way that if I am fully assured that what my child is saying is true, then I just plain believe them--I can't choose not to believe them, because I am convinced that they are telling the truth.

[ November 10, 2002, 06:14 PM: Message edited by: russell55 ]

 

Quite simply because we can! God gave us the right to choose. I don't choose the same things to believe that perhaps you do. I may be from Russia, and you from America, or I from Africa and you from New Zealand. Our environments have been different, therefore our choices will be different because of our upbringing. However, The Holy Scriptures remain unchanged and unchanging. They have withstood the test of time (as God said they do). So if you are coming from one direction and I the opposite, we may have different perspectives of the same truth. So we choose what we will believe based on environmental and personal persuasions. There are some constants that must be mentioned, and they are the Basic human needs, Food, Shelter, and clothing, and social acceptance. We all must eat, and to survive we need shelter from earth conditions, and we are ashamed of our nakedness, so we hide our bodies under garments of cloth (mostly), and we are a gregarious species that requires social interaction. Variations in these result in changes of perspective in our beliefs. So, Belief is not something that is forced upon us or fixed, else we all believe exactly the same in every case, and the evidence says that we don't or this BBS would not exist, or at best be very boring.

Consider the Buffet, all edible things are gloriously spread before you to eat, but not all of what is presented do you choose to eat. We choose from a Buffet based on a number of things, mood, personal preferences, experience, adventure, our state of hunger, the human senses, and our status in society. When speaking of the things of God, we choose much the same way, through the influences of our environment, our personal experiences, the trustworthiness of the presenter, and the presentation, our state of hunger or longing, etc.

One must choose to believe, before one can be assured. Belief is persuasion, so when one is persuaded to believe in something, one becomes convinced. Such belief can be in what is false as easily as it can be in what is true.

What you describe comes out of relationship. If one has no relationship with another, but must make a decision on the truthfulness of their words or deeds, then one must believe based on knowledge and evidence, because there is no established basis of trust.

Again, for an unbeliever to become a believer, such belief is based on knowledge and evidence, not upon relationship. The Holy Spirit affirms the truth of the knowledge and evidence to the one who must choose based thereon. Therefore, One can choose to not believe based on knowledge even when the Holy Spirit affirms otherwise. That is how we experience guilt, because in our consciousness we still retain the knowledge, and have experienced the Holy Spirit's affirmation of the truth of the knowledge that we rejected. Each subsequent confrontation of the truth must also be dealt with and each repeated rejection reduces the validity of the truth to the one who rejects it. Conversely, acceptance of the truth (belief in) causes the opposite effect. That is the truth becomes greater to the one who believes, the Holy Spirit ensures that it does.

A "falling away" occurs the same way! Disbelief of the truth becomes the greater while the truth, though in actuality the same as first encountered, becomes less to the unbeliever because the influence of the Holy Spirit who was rejected is not there to affirm it.

 

[ November 10, 2002, 07:48 PM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]

 

Quite simply because we can! God gave us the right to choose. I don't choose the same things to believe that perhaps you do. I may be from Russia, and you from America, or I from Africa and you from New Zealand. Our environments have been different, therefore our choices will be different because of our upbringing. However, The Holy Scriptures remain unchanged and unchanging. They have withstood the test of time (as God said they do). So if you are coming from one direction and I the opposite, we may have different perspectives of the same truth. So we choose what we will believe based on environmental and personal persuasions. There are some constants that must be mentioned, and they are the Basic human needs, Food, Shelter, and clothing, and social acceptance. We all must eat, and to survive we need shelter from earth conditions, and we are ashamed of our nakedness, so we hide our bodies under garments of cloth (mostly), and we are a gregarious species that requires social interaction. Variations in these result in changes of perspective in our beliefs. So, Belief is not something that is forced upon us or fixed, else we all believe exactly the same in every case, and the evidence says that we don't or this BBS would not exist, or at best be very boring.

Consider the Buffet, all edible things are gloriously spread before you to eat, but not all of what is presented do you choose to eat. We choose from a Buffet based on a number of things, mood, personal preferences, experience, adventure, our state of hunger, the human senses, and our status in society. When speaking of the things of God, we choose much the same way, through the influences of our environment, our personal experiences, the trustworthiness of the presenter, and the presentation, our state of hunger or longing, etc.

One must choose to believe, before one can be assured. Belief is persuasion, so when one is persuaded to believe in something, one becomes convinced. Such belief can be in what is false as easily as it can be in what is true.

What you describe comes out of relationship. If one has no relationship with another, but must make a decision on the truthfulness of their words or deeds, then one must believe based on knowledge and evidence, because there is no established basis of trust.

Again, for an unbeliever to become a believer, such belief is based on knowledge and evidence, not upon relationship. The Holy Spirit affirms the truth of the knowledge and evidence to the one who must choose based thereon. Therefore, One can choose to not believe based on knowledge even when the Holy Spirit affirms otherwise. That is how we experience guilt, because in our consciousness we still retain the knowledge, and have experienced the Holy Spirit's affirmation of the truth of the knowledge that we rejected. Each subsequent confrontation of the truth must also be dealt with and each repeated rejection reduces the validity of the truth to the one who rejects it. Conversely, acceptance of the truth (belief in) causes the opposite effect. That is the truth becomes greater to the one who believes, the Holy Spirit ensures that it does.

A "falling away" occurs the same way! Disbelief of the truth becomes the greater while the truth, though in actuality the same as first encountered, becomes less to the unbeliever because the influence of the Holy Spirit who was rejected is not there to affirm it.

 

Once again, where does scripture say one must CHOOSE to believe? You have a whole system developed (or so it seems) but no scripture to back it up.

According to scripture, belief IS assurance. Faith IS being convinced.

Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. (Hebrews 11)

If the Holy Spirit gives you assurance of the gospel, then that IS faith.

So....

For when we brought you the Good News, it was not only with words, but also with power, for the Holy Spirit gave you full assurance that what we said was true. (1 Thessalonians 1)

The Holy Spirit is the one that gives you that full assurance, so it is the Holy Spirit that gives you faith.

[ November 10, 2002, 08:51 PM: Message edited by: russell55 ]

 

You still haven't answered the question, Yelsew. WHY does one believe? If it is simply because "we can," then why don't all believe? WHY does an individual come to place their trust in Christ?

 

Excuse me, that is not the question, this is,

The answer remains, "because we can"!

Now to your questions,

I think I answered this question, too! And,

Because of the evidence first, that there is a God, and the Christ is the only begotten of God. Second, sin has left in us a void where God used to be, and we long, in turmoil, for that which will fill the void. The Word of God tells us that belief in His only begotten son fills that void. The Word gives us the knowledge upon which we base our belief, then it is a matter of trusting the Word. That is where the Holy Spirit comes in with the assurance that the Word is true and trustworthy. We believe based on longing for truth, finding truth and having the truth affirmed in us by the Holy Spirit. And that belief results from the fact that we can choose to believe!

 

1) Evidence
Is everyone convinced?

2) Void / Longing for Truth
Is everyone longing?

 

But not everybody DOES, even if they "can." So, why do we choose what we believe?

 

Where does scripture say we CHOOSE to believe? That's the question. I'm not looking for your theories, I'm looking for interaction with the text.

I know we CHOOSE to follow Christ, but where in scripture does it say we choose to believe?

I think I have shown from the text (the 1 Thes one) that belief (or faith) is given to us by the Holy Spirit. Because we have that faith--that assurance--that absolute certainty of the truth of the intangible things of God (Hebrews 11)--we choose to follow Christ. Like the OT saints who acted upon their faith (their assurance that what God spoke was true) with obedient choices, it is our faith that causes us to choose as we ought--to come to Him, to serve Him, to follow Him, to endure.

'Tisn't assurance that leads to faith; assurance IS faith.

Anyway, please find me a text that says we CHOOSE to believe?

 

Jesus said, ye believe in the father believe also in me. Now that really causes me a problem. If I cannot choose to believe as Jesus commanded, how do I come to such a belief?

Here's a possibility; The Holy Spirit simply flips the "believe/don't believe" switch in us and viola we suddenly believe?

Here's another possibility; We are not made in the image of God, we do not have free will, we are robots unable to think, unable to rationalize, unable to choose.

Here's another possibility, We are made in the image of God, which is spirit, and we have free will, and God has in His creation provided us with many options, and leaves it up to us to choose based on whatever criteria we elect that frames our choices.

Which of those possibilities most nearly matches what scriptures tell us about ourselves?

You are a teacher and you do not know this?
The scriptures old and new are full of examples where human choice is required. "Choose you this day whom you will serve", "Who do you say that I am"? "...that whosever believeth..." "...For me all things are ok, but not all things are..." and many more. Every question mark in scripture requires a choice as to whether or not you believe, and believing or not believing is your choice alone, no one else can choose for you.

But, you must choose to believe that it is true or not true. Until one chooses to accept Jesus, that one will not follow Him, or serve him, or even have obedient choices regarding things of the spirit. Until one believes in Jesus, there is no expectation of repentance from sin, no Confession of who Jesus is, no possibility of redemption. One must choose to believe in Jesus before one receives the Holy Spirit, let alone behaves like he has the Holy Spirit within.

Even so, if you do not believe it to be true, it is not true for you.

John ended His Gospel thusly,

I suppose this means that not everything worth knowing is contained in scripture. For example we are not told in scripture what the purpose is for the appendix, or the kidney, or the pancreas, or the thyroid, or the hypothalamus. However, without those organs, we could not live. Without the ability and mandate to choose what to believe, we also could not live. We would be "guided machines".

[ November 11, 2002, 02:33 AM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]

 

Jesus also told some that they DID NOT believe because they were not of His sheep. John 10:26.

What about that?

 

Who do you think are Jesus' sheep?