question for non-calvinists

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pioneer:

First of all, I am not an evangelical, I am a fundamentalist. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not even touching that one

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Second of all, those that truly understand eschatology according to the scriptures know that during the tribulation period, all those who have never heard the gospel will have a chance to be saved because of the preaching of the 144,000 sealed servants of God.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Despite your ad hominem, your "true understanding of eschatology" is only one version, and a very late one at that. Nevertheless, you beg the question. Is everyone preached to during the "tribulation" then saved? Are there none lost when Christ returns physically and have not believed? Why weren't they given longer to believe? Whose choice is it?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Third of all, salvation is not "a decision" it is a conversion, and this conversion takes place when a person realizes that he is lost and on his way to hell, repents of his sin, and places his faith and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ to save him. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Conversion takes place when God opens the eyes of sinners to their lostness and evilness of heart. He then calls them effecttually to himself, and they willingly repent and come.


<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Fourth and last of all, the reason why you cannot see the truth of the scriptures is because you are interpreting scripture according to Calvinistic doctrine. You do not let the scriptures speak for themselves.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, the reason why you cannot see the truth of the scriptures is because you are interpreting scripture according to anthropocentric doctrine. You wear blinders to the clear teaching of Divine Grace in the Scriptures, and you'd rather have an autonomous sinner than an all sovereign God.

[ November 30, 2001: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]

 

"This paper is written to try and counteract the teachings of Calvinism. "
http://www.bereaninternetministry.org/PDF/Doc17.pdf

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pioneer:
What did God predestinate in Rom 8:29? That we should be conformed to the image of his Son. This has to do with our being like Christ and living godly in this present evil world and does not offer any support to your doctrinal beliefs. Sorry, your analogy doesn't hold water.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How can you possibly deny that Rom 8:29 refers to salvation? Consider the context.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is clear that God's predestination includes salvation, unless you want to offer a different meaning for justification. It is not simply as easy as saying that refers to our Christian life. It certainly does. But it refers to much more because the only ones who live a Christian life are those who have been foreknown, predestined, called, justified, and will be one day glorified.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by paul hadik:
how to you answer the question concerning those who never hear the message of the gospel?
paul<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let's take these "one at a time", I'll address the other in the next post.


Let's let the Bible answer:

Ro 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law:

and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;


In the OT, the Jews were "under the Law", which ended with John.

Lu 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, (Gospel)

Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Ga 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.


Ga 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.


The law was to show man what was sin, anyone who "believed God", "ATTEMPTED" to keep the law, and that was counted as "righteousness" to them, as was Abraham.

Ga 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. (same plan)

Temple sacrifices "DID NOT" forgive Israel's sin, Only Jesus can "pay for sin".

Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Heb 10:12 But this man, (Jesus) after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Believing Jews who died under the OT,
were held captive by their sin until Jesus died (paid for) their sins. These he took to heaven with him, they've "Already" been Judged.

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive,

We who return with Jesus, will already have been Judged, the "second death" has no power over us either.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by paul hadik:
remember the Bible is also clear that faith comes by hearing through the Word of God.

In denying God's sovereign election you now must address the issue of God's basic fairness toward those in other areas of the word who have (for whatever reason) been denied access to God's word.

paul<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WHO'S FAITH???? God's, or "YOUR FAITH"????

I'm not God, so I'll let God Judge as to who has "never heard", but I will address those who have.

Jesus paid for the sins of the "WHOLE WORLD".

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


We are not condemned because we are sinners, because all are sinners, then why are some condemned and some not condemned??

Let's let the Bible tell us:

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

How do we get "UN condemned"??
He that believeth on him is not condemned:

So, "WE" have to "believe" to be "Un condemned".

What keeps us "Condemned"??
because.... "he hath not believed".... in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Ya see, we aren't "condemned" because we are "sinners", we are condemned because our sins have been paid for, BUT, "WE" refuse to acknowledge the "payment", (Jesus),so our sins remain.

If "WE" don't accept the "payment", God let us pay ourselves. (Hell).

Everyone is judged on the basis of their "belief" or "Unbelief".

Mt 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.


"FAITH" in God is counted to you as Righteousness.

And "BY YOUR WORDS", you'll be judged, Not predestination.

The "sowers seed" fell everywhere, but the reason the seed didn't grow was the "ground's fault" (for dust thou art) not God's.

 

sweet

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pastor Larry:


It is clear that God's predestination includes salvation, unless you want to offer a different meaning for justification. It is not simply as easy as saying that refers to our Christian life. It certainly does. But it refers to much more because the only ones who live a Christian life are those who have been foreknown, predestined, called, justified, and will be one day glorified.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


What was the "predestination"???

"predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son,"


Now "WHERE" do you see predestined to be "lost or saved" in this????

Let me give you a few example of what he "REALLY" is saying.

1. Jesus,.... was "Son of God"
Mt 8:29 Jesus, thou Son of God?
Christians,....are "Sons of God"

Joh 1:12 to them gave he power to become the sons of God,


2. Jesus,... had "words of God"
Joh 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God:

Christians,....have "words of God"
Joh 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me;


3. Jesus,...Had "Holy spirit"
Joh 3:34 for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

Christians,....have "Holy Spirit"
Lu 11:13 your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?


4. Jesus,.... Light of the world
Joh 9:5 I am the light of the world.

Christians,.... light of the world
Mt 5:14 Ye are the light of the world.


5.Jesus,....Works of God
Joh 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me,

Christians,....Works of God
Joh 14:12 He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also;


6. Jesus, ...had Righteousness of God
Ro 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness

Christians,...Have Righteousness of God
Ro 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all
them that believe:


7. Jesus,...God's Representative
Mt 10:40 he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Christians,...God's Representative
Mt 10:40 He that receiveth you receiveth me,


This is what we are "predestined" to be, but you'll have to already be saved before you come under this "predestination".

 

What in the world??? You list a lot of verses, none of which have much of anything material to do with the passage under consideration here. To be conformed to the image of his son is the process of sanctification and ultimately glorification.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Now "WHERE" do you see predestined to be "lost or saved" in this????<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Read the passage and notice the progression. (I pointed it out above and you apparently blew right past it.)

1) Foreknown
2) predestined
3) called
4) justified
5) glorified.

There is no way to get to 5 without going through 1-4. If you get to 2, you must necessarily include 3-5. There is a clear logical and necessary order. You are violating that order and thereby violating Scripture.

The ultimate "conforming to the image of his Son is glorification which is the end result of what started with foreknowledge (cf. 1 John 3:1). You cannot get there without justification which is salvation.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>3. Jesus,...Had "Holy spirit"
Joh 3:34 for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

Christians,....have "Holy Spirit"
Lu 11:13 your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Interesting how you spent a number of posts in another thread arguing that CHristians had the Holy Ghost, not the Holy Spirit. Now you are arguing that Christians have the HOly Spirit. Which is it?

BTW, John 3:34 is a very good reason for a modern version. I had to look it up to see what in the world it was saying. The KJV makes it appear opposite of what it is actually saying. The KJV makes it look like God is not giving the Spirit while the MVs make it clear that God is giving the Spirit without measure.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>This is what we are "predestined" to be, but you'll have to already be saved before you come under this "predestination".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, if you read the text, the predestination precedes the justification. You have the wrong order. Notice the above list: Predestination is (2); Justification is (4).

[ November 30, 2001: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

[ November 30, 2001: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

Wow....

I'm not Calvinist, I'm not Arminian. I'm simply a Christian. That's first.

Do men have a choice? Yes, or it would never have been said "Choose this day whom you will serve.." The entire Bible contains a series of 'if...then...' clauses put forward by God in one form or another.

What about Romans 8:29? It starts with 8:28, which is consistently ignored by Reformed theologians: "those who love him" is the first part of the series. And those who love Him are predestined to be conformed to His image -- and He takes full responsibility for that (Phil. 1:6). Predestination has to do with the final condition of the believer, not with who will and will not become a believer. This doesn't say that God didn't always know who would be who in the end, but that His knowledge did not force the issue for any human being. Peter says clearly that God does not want one to perish. Not one. Jesus cried over Jerusalem, saying "I would" that Jerusalem would respond to Him, but Jerusalem would not.

We not only have free will, God respects it. Please note that in the ten Plagues of Moses the Pharaoh hardened his own heart for the first five, and it was only after that that God hardened his heart -- sort of like, "You want it? You got it!" This gives Jesus' promise of "Seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened..." a double-edged meaning. Those who want the truth will get it. Those who prefer a lie will get that.

What about all the saints listed in Hebrews 11? How were they saved? They did not know the name of Jesus. But they knew the Promise. God's Promise, originally stated to Eve and reiterated a number of times in the Old Testament. There is some textual evidence that Abraham thought maybe Isaac was the Messiah, and understood that there must be a sacrifice and a resurrection. Take a look at the point at which he and Isaac leave the servants behind to go up the mountain. Abraham says, "Stay here with the donkey while I and the boy go over there. WE will worship and then WE will come back to you."

As many have chronicled, every culture around the world seems to have something left in it of the Promise which a man may take hold of in faith, in the same way the Old Testament saints did. To throw oneself utterly on God's mercy and faith in the Promise that He would provide the way is to, in truth, depend entirely on Christ, who said clearly, "I am the WAY, the truth, and the light."

Just because we are blessed enough to know the historical name of Jesus and the details of his birth, life, crucifixion, and resurrection does not mean that others in other places and at other times are not capable of depending as utterly on Him as the Promise of God as we do knowing what we know.
All around the world, it has been possible for people to say, if they chose to, "I know that my Redeemer lives." God has not ever, at any time, left any man without some kind of witness which could be accepted or rejected.

The job of Christian missionaries has really not been to tell a new story. It has been to say, "God did it! The Promise has been fulfilled in history. Let me tell you about it!" This is the good news. This is the Gospel. But long before the historical gospel was put down, Jesus had already been sacrificed in fact (to be worked out in history at the right time) -- see Revelation 13:8.

 

I did not avoid your question, Paul. You might, in the meantime, be interested in this article I contributed to:
http://www.ldolphin.org/zodiac/

There is also a good article pertaining to this subject here: http://philologos.org/__eb-mazzaroth/

You see, all people have always had access to the knowledge necessary.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by paul hadik:
S. Baptist:

the original question remains avoided. The pacific islands were filled with people who for thousands of years never heard of the Bible or Christ. They died in their sin.
Since they were denied this chance to make a choice due simply to their birthplace...where are they now?
And what controlling factor had you born in a place where you had easy access to revelation? Luck?

paul<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Bible's chronology only goes back 6 thousand years, not so long or far away as "Evilution" leads many to believe.

Ro 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.


If sin isn't imputed until the law came, why did God drown the world for being evil before he gave Moses the law???

If Noah obtained righteousness, why wasn't it possible for the rest of the world??

If God judged the world to be evil and drown it, then "evidently" they knew "right from wrong", as did Noah, and before God gave Moses the Law.

Knowing the "law" and "right from wrong" is different, Adam didn't "know the law", but he knew "right from wrong" and chose the "wrong".

A young person may chose to be "saved" without knowing the law, following only the Spirit.


I don't know the "Heart" of every person, everywhere, I'm only accountable for what I do know about "ME". So I'll let God worry about everyone else.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Actually, if you read the text, the predestination precedes the justification. You have the wrong order. Notice the above list: Predestination is (2); Justification is (4).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree that "God foreknew" who would "CHOSE" salvation and who would "REJECT" it, BUT, no where does the Bible teach that "God" "FORCES HIS WILL" upon man.

All have sinned, and a "righteous Judgment" from a "Righteous Judge" would cast all of us into Hell.


For God to remain a "Righteous God" and "Rightous Judge", he must be "impartial" toward sinners.

Offering salvation to some while withholding it from others isn't being "impartial" or "Righteous".

However when "ALL SINNERS" are offered the "same opportunities", then Judged according to "THEIR CHOICE", the Judge is "Impartial" and "Righteous".


By one man's sin, Death entered the world, and by one Man's Righteousness, death departed for ALL who "HAVE FAITH" in him.

Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon "ALL MEN" unto justification of life.


This is where "Calvin" was wrong, He "assumed" Jesus died only for the "Elect", and therefore it wasn't possible for the "un elect" to be saved.

However Jesus died for the sins of the "WHOLE WORLD", so salvation was offered to the "WHOLE WORLD", and we're not condemned (Judged) because we "are sinners", but because "WE" have not allowed Jesus to pay for our sins, so payment is still owed.

Calvin accused God of being "BIAS" in offering Salvation and in Judgment.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by S. Baptist:
I agree that "God foreknew" who would "CHOSE" salvation and who would "REJECT" it, BUT, no where does the Bible teach that "God" "FORCES HIS WILL" upon man.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree that God does not force his will on man. I don't know any Calvinist thinks that he does. God accomplishes his will through man.

Foreknowledge in regards to salvation is always somebody and not something (like faith). It is always determinative. However, granting for the sake of argument only, that foreknowledge is God looking through time and then choosing those who choose him, you have not helped yourself because man would still not have the freedom of changing his mind. You are back at the same place.

FTR, you still haven 't answered the question. You have a remarkable way of posting a lot and saying nothing with regards to the questions and points that have been made.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>For God to remain a "Righteous God" and "Rightous Judge", he must be "impartial" toward sinners. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What Scripture do you pull this from? And what do you do with the verses where it says that God hates sinners? That does not sound impartial. I don't accept your premise here. God is absolutely holy and perfect. He always does right.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Offering salvation to some while withholding it from others isn't being "impartial" or "Righteous".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is a fallacy. Was it "righteous" that we who live today have the medium of mass communication, the printed word, jet travel for missions, all with the consequent ability to share the gospel with more people while those who lived in previous generations had known of that? By your standard, God is a unrighteous God because we have many more benefits than people one hundred years ago, much less those who lived in the days of the patriarchs.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>This is where "Calvin" was wrong, He "assumed" Jesus died only for the "Elect", and therefore it wasn't possible for the "un elect" to be saved. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Calvin and many others have argued this pretty sensibly from Scripture. And besides whatever you think about the atonement, it is impossible for the unelect to be saved, no matter what definition you give it. Surely you do not deny the existence of the doctrine of election. I assume you just define it differently. Election by definition is unto salvation.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Calvin accused God of being "BIAS" in offering Salvation and in Judgment.[/QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where?

 

Helen:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I'm not Calvinist, I'm not Arminian. I'm simply a Christian. That's first. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As it should be for all believers. Nevertheless, it begs the question: what is a Christian? One who simply believes, or one who adheres to proper doctrine as well? It may seem pietistic to claim “I am a Christian” or “no creed but the Bible”, but the believer must come to grips with what the Bible teaches concerning the person and character and attributes of God, as well as His purpose and role in soteriology.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Do men have a choice? Yes, or it would never have been said "Choose this day whom you will serve.." The entire Bible contains a series of 'if...then...' clauses put forward by God in one form or another. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Men have a choice, but that choice is always – always – limited by their nature. The call to choose repentance is not an invitation but a command. “The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, [31] because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead." Acts 17:30-31 (ESV)

The concept of free-will is unknown in the Bible. Even God does not have a true free will. His will is limited by his character and attributes. He cannot choose to be evil (although he uses evil to accomplish his purposes in the world). Likewise, man cannot choose to be good or do good. Man being evil, can only choose what is limited by his evil nature. Man chooses what satisfies his fleshly desires; not what God commands. Even choosing God is the work of God and not man. “Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you are seeking me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves. [27] Do not labor for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal." [28] Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?" [29] Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent." John 6:26-29 (ESV)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>What about Romans 8:29? It starts with 8:28, which is consistently ignored by Reformed theologians: "those who love him" is the first part of the series. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To suggest that Reformed theologians “ignore” Romans 8:28 is most disingenuous. I could cite you dozens of sermons and expositions concerning this passage by Calvinists. What does it say?

Verse 26 starts the paragraph.
We see in 8:26 that we cannot even pray, but that the Holy Spirit must pray for believers through believers . even prayer is a work of God to God on our behalf. Romans 8:26 (ESV) “Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. [27] And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.”

Verse 28 gives believers a blessed promise: “And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.” Who are believers: unregenerate sinners who “choose to come to Christ”? No, for “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is of no avail. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. [64] But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) [65] And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." John 6:63-65 (ESV)

Believers are those “whom he foreknew (meaning foreloved)he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. [30] And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.” Rom 8:29-30 (ESV).

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>And those who love Him are predestined to be conformed to His image -- and He takes full responsibility for that (Phil. 1:6).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How can God take full responsibility for something that he cannot do if the will of man can thwart his own will?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Predestination has to do with the final condition of the believer, not with who will and will not become a believer. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No. Predestination means being elected to be saved before the foundation of the world.

Isaiah 44:7 (ESV) Who is like me? Let him proclaim it.
Let him declare and set it before me,
since I appointed an ancient people.
Let them declare what is to come, and what will happen.

Malachi 1:2-3 (ESV) "I have loved you," says the Lord. But you say, "How have you loved us?" "Is not Esau Jacob's brother?" declares the Lord. "Yet I have loved Jacob [3] but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert."

Matthew 11:25-26 (ESV) At that time Jesus declared, "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; [26] yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.

Matthew 20:23 (ESV) He said to them, "You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father."

John 3:5-8 (ESV) Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. [6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. [7] Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' [8] The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Ephes. 1:4-8 (ESV) even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love [5] he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, [6] to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. [7] In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, [8] which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>This doesn't say that God didn't always know who would be who in the end, but that His knowledge did not force the issue for any human being. Peter says clearly that God does not want one to perish. Not one. Jesus cried over Jerusalem, saying "I would" that Jerusalem would respond to Him, but Jerusalem would not. Verse 28 says this <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are confusing God’s perfect decretive will with his permissive will and the fact that God does not joy in the death of the wicked.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>We not only have free will, God respects it. Please note that in the ten Plagues of Moses the Pharaoh hardened his own heart for the first five, and it was only after that that God hardened his heart -- sort of like, "You want it? You got it!" This gives Jesus' promise of "Seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened..." a double-edged meaning. Those who want the truth will get it. Those who prefer a lie will get that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Romans 9:14-18 (ESV) What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! [15] For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." [16] So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. [17] For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." [18] So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>What about all the saints listed in Hebrews 11? How were they saved? They did not know the name of Jesus. But they knew the Promise. God's Promise, originally stated to Eve and reiterated a number of times in the Old Testament. There is some textual evidence that Abraham thought maybe Isaac was the Messiah, and understood that there must be a sacrifice and a resurrection. Take a look at the point at which he and Isaac leave the servants behind to go up the mountain. Abraham says, "Stay here with the donkey while I and the boy go over there. WE will worship and then WE will come back to you." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This hurts your case rather than help it. The reason OT saints are saved is that they are God’s elect, just as NT saints are. They were chosen by God’s grace through faith for salvation, and did not receive the promises until a later time. The faith needed to hold on to salvation is the faith they were gifted with according to available revelation.

Isaiah 45:4-6 (ESV) For the sake of my servant Jacob,
and Israel my chosen,
I call you by your name,
I name you, though you do not know me.
[5] I am the Lord, and there is no other,
besides me there is no God;
I equip you, though you do not know me,
[6] that people may know, from the rising of the sun
and from the west, that there is none besides me;
I am the Lord, and there is no other.
Proverbs 16:4 (ESV) The Lord has made everything for its purpose,
even the wicked for the day of trouble.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by S. Baptist:
Predestination "forces" "salvation or damnation" on a person. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You don't have a clue what predestination teaches, and your human pride prevents you from wanting to know.